Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sushi X · 10-05-2002, 07:43 PM

I'm going to be ridiculed for this, but here goes (damn I love this site). I think that the moment of silence in public school isn't bad. *GASP! SHRIEK! SON OF A ...* First off, those of us who think it's a bad thing, listen to yourselves. If the conservative relgious ppl want school prayer, lets hope this is as far as they get. By challenging them, we can do nothing but make them more pissed off at us. While this is undoubtedly fun, it wont get us far. Second, I have seen no one who takes it as anything more then an extra minute to finish homework from the night before. NO one. Not even the religious folk who read books on why Jebus is the way and everyone's going to hell if they don't give in to conformity. I know that some people pray, but they do it silently (note the name: Moment of Silence) and any one of us who's bothered by it is being way too sensitive. But I haven't seen any praying.

I do, however, disagree with the Pledge of Allegience (you may all now breathe a sigh of relief). The Under God phrase is blasphemous. I don't say it, but I am appalled at how even fellow Atheists say it out of force of habit. I certainly believe our national motto should be changed back to E Pluribus Unum, instead of In God We Trust. Why are we letting them get away with this? Why are we not being more vocal? HMM? This topic is now open for discussion.

pescifish · 10-06-2002, 07:15 AM

SushiX, I think you would have gotten some great responses here in SL&S regarding your thoughts in the first paragraph (such as taking advantage of a quiet time during prayer in school), but I think your questions below have a much better place in Church-State Separation and Activism forum.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sushi X:
Why are we letting them get away with this? Why are we not being more vocal? HMM? This topic is now open for discussion.

I have moved this topic to <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000726" target="_blank">here</a> in C-SS&A.

pescifish, mod SL&S

[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: pescifish ]

Berenger Sauniere · 10-06-2002, 09:09 AM

Freedom of speech as provided in the U.S. Constitution already gives an individual the right to meditate, reflect, pray silently, vocally or not pray at all as one chooses. Are the American citizens not doing it to the satisfaction of the United States Government? Or are the American citizens not doing it to the satisfaction of certain Christian political action committees? I think the U.S. Government needs to reflect on this.

Starboy · 10-06-2002, 10:09 AM

I agree with the currency and pledge. I will have to ponder the moment of silence.

Starboy

Shake · 10-06-2002, 11:09 AM

Quote:

I certainly believe our national motto should be changed back to E Pluribus Unum, instead of In God We Trust.

The Ad Council has a new one of those, "I am an American" ads out. It's got the people who are obviously of different ethnic backgrounds saying the phrase, but this one's different 'cause at the end they show "E Pluribus Unum" and "Out of many, One" beneath it. <a href="http://www.adcouncil.org/campaigns/I_am_an_American/" target="_blank">This link</a> will take you to the page where you can view the ad.

GaryP · 10-06-2002, 05:10 PM

My personal problem with MOS is that , in some cases, prayer is offered as an option. If prayer is a stated option, should not "no prayer" be stated also?

Or perhaps, "You may reflect on how much better our world would be if we just followed John Lennon's advice in the lyrics to Imagine.

uhcord · 10-06-2002, 07:20 PM

HEY, MAYBE I DON'T WANT TO BE SILENT? EH?

If we have a moment of silence, I call for a moment of loudness!!!!!

Hell, how about "a moment of do whatever the fuck you want to do"?

trientalis · 10-06-2002, 07:21 PM

You'll have to hand out kleenex first.

4th Generation Atheist · 10-07-2002, 11:01 AM

If we have a moment of silence, I call for a moment of loudness!!!!!

Plenty of those in today's schools, with no special arrangements.

A moment of silence per se doesn't especially bother me. Hence I don't tend to raise much of a fuss when that is all that's proposed. The problem is, the current atmosphere has apparently led a number of religion-in-politics activists to think they can get away with a lot---hence the concern that the moment of silence is a prelude to more invasive Xnity-in-the-schools practices. It's there that the line should be drawn. (I've usually heard the "moment" options as "prayer and reflection". I'd agree a bit more if these were stated as "prayer or, maybe and/or, reflection"; I never pray, but I reflect a great deal, if that means to think about the subject of the memorial or whatever.) As long as it is clear there are non-religious options, I've no problem with the moment at all. The problem has always been when the fundies, or other religious zealots, wish to use it as an entree for more involved and specific philosophical exercises.

[ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: 4th Generation Atheist ]

Jamie_L · 10-07-2002, 11:29 AM

I don't have a big problem with the moment of silence. If it's a choice between that and prayer, I'll take MOS please. But there should be no instruction beforehand. Just "Now for the required moment of silence."

What bugs me, however, is the people pushing MOS don't really want MOS. They don't sit around and say to themselves, "What schools are missing is some time set aside when people are required not to make noise." What they are saying is "We need prayer in school. If we can't get it, maybe we can at least get a moment of silence."

If someone actually convinced me that they had a non-religious intent behind the MOS, I'd have no problem at all. We all know, however, that the intent behind MOS is completely religious.

Jamie

10-05-2002, 07:43 PM	#1
Sushi X Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Washington DC Posts: 86	Atheism and the moment of silence/Pledge of allegience I'm going to be ridiculed for this, but here goes (damn I love this site). I think that the moment of silence in public school isn't bad. GASP! SHRIEK! SON OF A ... First off, those of us who think it's a bad thing, listen to yourselves. If the conservative relgious ppl want school prayer, lets hope this is as far as they get. By challenging them, we can do nothing but make them more pissed off at us. While this is undoubtedly fun, it wont get us far. Second, I have seen no one who takes it as anything more then an extra minute to finish homework from the night before. NO one. Not even the religious folk who read books on why Jebus is the way and everyone's going to hell if they don't give in to conformity. I know that some people pray, but they do it silently (note the name: Moment of Silence) and any one of us who's bothered by it is being way too sensitive. But I haven't seen any praying. I do, however, disagree with the Pledge of Allegience (you may all now breathe a sigh of relief). The Under God phrase is blasphemous. I don't say it, but I am appalled at how even fellow Atheists say it out of force of habit. I certainly believe our national motto should be changed back to E Pluribus Unum, instead of In God We Trust. Why are we letting them get away with this? Why are we not being more vocal? HMM? This topic is now open for discussion.

10-07-2002, 11:01 AM	#9
4th Generation Atheist Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Tower of Ecthelion...by the Starbuck's Posts: 1,815	<strong>If we have a moment of silence, I call for a moment of loudness!!!!!</strong> Plenty of those in today's schools, with no special arrangements. A moment of silence per se doesn't especially bother me. Hence I don't tend to raise much of a fuss when that is all that's proposed. The problem is, the current atmosphere has apparently led a number of religion-in-politics activists to think they can get away with a lot---hence the concern that the moment of silence is a prelude to more invasive Xnity-in-the-schools practices. It's there that the line should be drawn. (I've usually heard the "moment" options as "prayer and reflection". I'd agree a bit more if these were stated as "prayer or, maybe and/or, reflection"; I never pray, but I reflect a great deal, if that means to think about the subject of the memorial or whatever.) As long as it is clear there are non-religious options, I've no problem with the moment at all. The problem has always been when the fundies, or other religious zealots, wish to use it as an entree for more involved and specific philosophical exercises. [ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: 4th Generation Atheist ]</p>

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10-06-2002, 09:09 AM	#3
Berenger Sauniere Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: et in Arcadia ego... Posts: 406	Freedom of speech as provided in the U.S. Constitution already gives an individual the right to meditate, reflect, pray silently, vocally or not pray at all as one chooses. Are the American citizens not doing it to the satisfaction of the United States Government? Or are the American citizens not doing it to the satisfaction of certain Christian political action committees? I think the U.S. Government needs to reflect on this.

10-06-2002, 10:09 AM	#4
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	I agree with the currency and pledge. I will have to ponder the moment of silence. Starboy

10-06-2002, 05:10 PM	#6
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	My personal problem with MOS is that , in some cases, prayer is offered as an option. If prayer is a stated option, should not "no prayer" be stated also? Or perhaps, "You may reflect on how much better our world would be if we just followed John Lennon's advice in the lyrics to Imagine.

10-06-2002, 07:20 PM	#7
uhcord Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Somewhere Posts: 1,158	HEY, MAYBE I DON'T WANT TO BE SILENT? EH? If we have a moment of silence, I call for a moment of loudness!!!!! Hell, how about "a moment of do whatever the fuck you want to do"?

10-06-2002, 07:21 PM	#8
trientalis Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Washington state Posts: 848	You'll have to hand out kleenex first.

10-07-2002, 11:29 AM	#10
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	I don't have a big problem with the moment of silence. If it's a choice between that and prayer, I'll take MOS please. But there should be no instruction beforehand. Just "Now for the required moment of silence." What bugs me, however, is the people pushing MOS don't really want MOS. They don't sit around and say to themselves, "What schools are missing is some time set aside when people are required not to make noise." What they are saying is "We need prayer in school. If we can't get it, maybe we can at least get a moment of silence." If someone actually convinced me that they had a non-religious intent behind the MOS, I'd have no problem at all. We all know, however, that the intent behind MOS is completely religious. Jamie

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