Wyz_sub10

That's not even a contradiction.

The example fo the death of Judas is a contradiction. The math that establishes many of the dates in the bible provide contradictions.

The family histories of Jesus provide contradictions.

These are minor ones, to boot.

Mageth

Contradictory in terms of how different denominations choose to interpret it.

For example, Catholics believe that the passages in the Bible about Baptism make it a requirement, yet most Christians don't, it doesn't say its a requirement but Catholics choose to make it that way.

To the point, we're not talking about the many different ways the bible can be interpreted; that's a bit of a different problem with the bible. We're talking about contradictions in different accounts of the same events in the bible.

As far as baptism goes, a good argument can be made on both sides of the issue using scripture. "Repent, and be baptized every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and ye shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost and his promises unto you", for example, could be read to indicate that baptism is required. Numerous other denominations and sects believe baptism is required besides the Catholics, BTW. My bet is most xians do think it's a requirement or at a minimum highly recommended (as Catholics make up approximately half of all xians, I feel pretty safe in this bet).

Clutch

Did you intend to do anything beyond parading your misunderstandings of (i) the notion of evidence, (ii) neurology, and (iii) radio waves? Last time you were heard from on this, you admitted that you didn't know much about it -- but seem to be confidently pronouncing on the matter anyhow.

Let's put it this way. Give defensive arguments against neuroscience that would not work just as well to show that elan vital -- 19th C's "life spirits" -- can be disembodied too. Even that would not be much of a start, but it's probably more than can be done.

Lobstrosity

You can assume we have none, but I can assure you that you have no idea what you're talking about. Your notion that we can never have such evidence is absolutely preposterous and has no basis in reality.

everlastingtongue

We both keep dancing around this calling each others responses silly. Would anyone care to post what they believe is a strong teleological argument?

Magus55

Theologists exist to study the Bible the same way scientists study science. No one knew didly squat about DNA, atoms, astronomy, anatomy etc until people learned about them. The Bible would be pretty boring if it required absolutely no thought and studying to learn about what some things mean. The important parts given clearly and don't require much if any studying. Jesus said, I am the way , the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me. No misunderstanding, no deep thought required because its the most important part of the Bible. The Bible makes you think in order for believers to continually study and grow spiritually. You could spend your whole life studying the Bible and never learn half of it. But the points God emphasized are redundant and clear so there is no confusion.


Just because He doesn't want you to go to hell doesn't mean he can let you off for your crimes unpunished. If you don't except his way to be set free, you have to be punished or God wouldn't be holy and righteous.

Hell wasn't created for humans, We would have never been in Hell if we obeyed God. But we blew it, now we have to suffer the consequences.


I don't know the fate of former sincere Christians or anyone for that matter, not my place to decide, You could very well end up in Heaven but lose rewards for turning your back on God. No one can snatch you from God's hands. If you truly confessed yourself to Jesus and asked him for forgiveness, you may be saved, I don't know. God will decide how to deal with you turning away.




[quoteI fail to understand what you're not happy about. Are you saying god is doing the wrong thing by sending people to hell? It sounds like you don't agree with the setup.

BTW, these people care, all right, or they wouldn't be here either. They just don't think god exists.[/quote] I'm unhappy you are throwing God's gift in his face and denying he even exists. Since we believe in God's message, we are trying to get you to rethink you atheism and turn to God so you don't go to Hell. Jesus warned of Hell and how not to go there, we are just emphasizing it and spreading it to the masses.



Like i said i don't know your fate, Jesus said he is the only way, if we see someone who has never believed in God or Jesus but has heard plenty about them, we take by God's message that they rejected his gift.



Really? Why does hell exist?[quote] To punish and imprison Lucifer and the fallen angels originally, but since unforgiven sinners believed Satan and followed his lies, they suffer the same fate now.



You may not want to go to Hell but you don't want to even have an open mind that God could very well exist. No other religion has stood up to Christianity, every other religion is a way to pull people from God, and as you can see its worked quite well. Ah well, Satan can have his fun now, God will come out the victor no matter what.

Nope, he said the way to Heaven is narrow and the path to Hell wide, Billions of people communicate ( past and present) with him just fine and Christianity is the only religion that has stood the test of time and comes even close to being the real one.



Sure thats the way to live and it may provide rewards for you in Heaven if you're saved, but its not enough to actually save yourself

No one except Jesus.



The point is by following Jesus, you spread the Kingdom of God to the masses. It provides rewards in Heaven and is in obedience to Jesus. Evil is against God so its never good. But you still will sin no matter what and fall short of God's standards. No works get you in Heaven, only belief. Works get you rewards and promote His kingdom.


The ultimate penalty for humans against humans is death. We aren't holy and we aren't infinite. God is, where on Earth the ultimate punishment is death, in His Kingdom, the ultimate punishment is eternal death. Thats just how severe a crime against God is. Lying is as big of a crime to God as Hitler was to humanity. God cannot have anything do with Sin and can't look upon it, coming to Earth in human form is how he got around it. The flesh allowed him to be among sinners. God the Father is beyond any ideal of goodness and justice that humans can comprehend.

Free Thinkr

Can't? Aren't we talking about god here? Doesn't the bible say something to the effect of "With god, all things are possible?" Is god omnipotent or not?

Yes, but what is "holy," and what is "righteous?" Do humans define this term? If so, then is god not evil for torturing humans eternally? And if not, then isn't god the one ultimately responsible for deciding what is "righteous" or "holy?" And isn't god the one who chooses to be so? I don't see how ole Yaweh is off the hook here.

I didin't disobey god, I was set up. According to the bible all humans are in this mess, because we descended from disobedient parents. Well sorry..

That pretty much sums up your misunderstanding. People do not choose what they believe. We're not throwing anything in anyone's face. I can't help that I don't believe in god. I just haven't seen any evidence. If god truly wanted to save me, he'd give sufficient evidence. Again, people do not choose their beliefs.

Wow. That's a pretty bold statement. You now claim to know how open minded other people are or are not? I guess you have to, otherwise your position would make no sense.

I find this interesting. So god holds people responsible, even if they were fooled? If god loves us, why does he let satan trick us into an eternity of torture?

Less than half. Past or present. That's a shitty job for an omniscient being; I don't care what you say.

You still haven't explained what the point is. Okay, we live like jesus, and spread the kingdom of god. The people we spread it to, spread it to others. Now, everyone's a christian. Still, none of us are free from sin, so why fucking bother?

There you go again. You seem to have god as some sort of cosmic victim. "God can not live with sin." Please. If everything came from god, then sin did as well. He can live with it, he simply chooses not to. Not only that, but he chooses to torcher those who don't agree; eternally.

Magus55

Yes God is omnipotent, and he can do anything that doesn't defy who he is. Can a square not have 4 sides? No because then it wouldn't be a square. Just like God can't not be righteous and holy, otherwise he wouldn't be God.


God doesn't "decide" what is ultimately righteous, he IS what is ultimately righteous. God did not create himself, he has always existed and always been ultimately righteous. The standards of righteousness and holiness have been in stone for all of eternity. They are the defintion of who God is. God isn't just a righteous or holy person, He IS righteousness and He IS holiness. There are no standards above him, he is the embodiment of those traits.



Yeah we all descended from disobedient parents yet billions of people overcame that and realized their need for a savior. You still fall short of God's standards every day by your own actions.


I grew up in a non religious family and was put in synagogue to maintain my Jewish heritage. Whereby i learned from a young age the cliche that Jews don't believe in Jesus, to do so would be treason to your people. My grandparents basically disown me because of it. I came from upbringings that have nothing to do with what i believe now, yet i still found Jesus Christ and God's truth... whats your excuse?


Do you enjoy the pleasures of the earth? Do you not choose to reject the idea of God because you can't find evidence for him or you would never humble yourself before him? You would disobey God with or without Satan's help.


No, it was a perfect job from God, he doesn't force us to follow him. He takes only people who are willing. We did a crappy job of obeying him, not His fault we like to sin.


Because you are still in a corrupt body, therefore will always sin. Faith in Jesus and God changes you spiritually, saved Christians repent when they sin, they hate committing a sin against God, it makes them feel sick. We realize how bad sin is and strive not to do it, but while we are on Earth in corrupt bodies, we will always fall and seek forgiveness for our failures.


God doesn't force you to deny and reject Him, nor does he force you to sin against him. You did that on your own. Sin is going against what God deems right, he didn't create it - only the ability to do so. Because of Free will, we are able to disobey God, had we not originally done it in the first place, sin wouldn't exist. When God created the angels, sin was non existant, but the angels had free will - they chose to rebell, and sin ( the term used to describe that which is opposed to God) entered the universe.

Wyz_sub10

No, they definitely do not study the bible the way scientists study science. But seeing as you belive this to be true, explain to me what an experiment to test the bible would look like?

I never implied thought shouldn't be given to the bible. But if, during the course of your comtemplation you encounter something that seems contradictory or implausible, what have you "learned" by saying, "well, we can't understand god"?

I disagree. This is not very clear at all. What does it mean to "come through" him? Solely through belief? Acting as Jesus did? Sacrificing yourself? All of these are spoken of in the bible as being ultimate paths, yet these are not all ways to heaven, are they?

Let me say this frankly - the bible is full of errancy, it describes events that did not take place, in addition to many that could not. It contradicts itself often when presenting direction on moral living.

Even if the biggest points were clear, the amount of seemingly important information that is not clear or is demonstratively false calls into question everything around it.

What crimes are those, exactly? Do you know something I don't?

I'm not sure what punishment has to do with being holy, but I'm a little confused as to why I've been given free will if, in the end, I have to accept his way to set me free of something I didn't do, or I'll be punished forevermore. What a needlessly convoluted setup. Where is the justice in this, by the way? If I have free will, why can't I say, "you know, when I die, just let me die."

Free will is meaningless under your assessment. It's coercion and bullying and has little to do with real choice of any kind.

For my information, could you cite where in the bible it describes the creation of hell and it's intended purpose please?

Maybe you "blew it". I didn't. I'm not sure what I would be accepting responsibility for even if I agreed to do so. I'll read further to see if you answered my question about appropriate punishment.

I didn't say sincere Christians, necessarily. I said, good, sincere and honest people - Christian or otherwise.

Rewards? Is there a "sliding scale" of salvation?

Magus55, what am I confessing to? What am I asking forgiveness for? I know the standard answers. I want to hear yours.

What is this gift, in your opinion? According to you, I was born a sinner - full of sin that I cannot overcome. Although I have free will, I have two choices - admit I'm sinful and do what I'm told or face eternal damnation.

If this is your idea of a gift, I think I'll leave you off the list for my birthday party.

I repeatedly hit your foot with a hammer, and I ask you to plead with me to stop. You do. I stop. Should you be thankful to me about being merciful? If so, what does that say about me?

I understand that. I think it's admirable that you're concerned for others. But you fail to understand that atheism is not necessarily a conscious choice. If I offered you $1,000,000 to truly believe I was 5 years old (despite my physcial appearance of 30 years), could you? Could you sincerely choose to believe that, regardless of the benefit? (and total lack of negative repercussions)

That's absolutely not true. Did you not read my post? I spent 25 years as a Christian - very dedciated, very faithful. I even witnessed to others. My parents are still Christian (my mom is a very religious woman).

Why is it hard to accept that my mind and heart were completely open, that I did investigate god and Christianity, and that after a long journey I realized that my beliefs were not valid? (Note that we can get into why this is the case or how I came to this point, but it's off-topic for this discussion - the point is, my mind was completely open).

An open mind won't always yield the result you want. It was my open mind that allowed me to challenge my Christian beliefs.

How are you qualifying this statement? Islam brings *hundreds* of millions to god. Hinuism brings *hundreds* of millions to a host of gods. You are assuming these are false and Christianity is true, but you have not provided any reason why I should believe you and not, say, my friend Yawar (who is Muslim) or my good friend Sonia (who is Hindu).

Billions of people have claimed to communicate with other concepts of god. The numbers are against you, if you think numbers are a meaningful argument. Billions claime to have communicated with their ancestors over time too. Does this prove anything? How is Christianity different?

You make statements like "comes even close to being the real one" with no qaulification. It's an empty statement unless you can show me how is comes closer than anything else.

Then it seems pointless.

Maybe he should have started with Jesus instead of Adam. You may say that I can't question god, but clearly he made a mistake the first time. Had he started with Jesus we might not be in the situation you seem to think we're in.

What are these rewards you keep talking about? If we live the exact same lives, but you actively minister and I don't, what do you think is waiting for you as a bonus? Earthly rewards? More joy? All of these seem inconsistent with the nature of heaven.

Sooooo....as I said it doesn't matter - good works, bad works. We're all sinners and nothing is ever good enough. Why shouldn't I just have all the hedonistic fun I can handle then? You walk the straight and narrow. We're both sinners and doomed without repentance, in your view.

Are plants, dogs and viruses being punished by god through death?

Eternmal death is one thing, hell is quite another. The concept of "eternal death" doesn't phase me because, guess what, I think we're all headed there. When you die, you'll be none the wiser.

Hell, however, is darkness and pain (correct me if I'm wrong). This is not the same as eternal death. I'm fine with the concept of dying, although I will miss my parents terribly when they die.

Do you think Hitler should have been (if possible) tortured for all of eternity, with no possiblity for him to change his ways?

Sorry Magus55, but this is just nonsense! God would have everything to do with sin because he created it and allowed for it to happen!! God looks upon it everyday, seeing as he "communicates with billions" as you say.

Coming in human form is how he "got around it"? What does this mean? What did he get around? Was Jesus one with god or wasn't he?

But when I die, according to Christianity, I will no longer be of flesh. So what is it that god will no be able to be around? Sin? He can cleanse me of it any time he so chooses.

I don't think for a minute that god is "beyond any ideal of goodness and justice that humans can comprehend."

I think the concept of the Christian god defies logic and reason, and as such Christians take solace in the idea that is really is good and just, but because he is beyond understanding he only seems top defy reason and logic. This is lazy thinking.

You didn't answer my direct question at the end - would what the person you love most in the world have to do to warrant your decision to inflict pain and torture upon them with no chance for reprieve?

I suspect you are avoiding the question because you cannot think of any reason you would do this to your most cherish friend or familiy member.

Magus55

Archaeology to find the sites and events portrayed in the Bible for one example ( in which Archaeologists are finding the Bible harder and harder to disprove the more they uncover).



We haven't found anything implausible, since we believe God to maintain the traits he says he has, nothing he has done is implausible or impossible.



Fine, sorry bad example.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


No, you claim it has errors or the parts that seem to be in error aren't meant to be literal ( not EVERY single verse in the Bible is meant to be literal). Considering the U.S was founded on the Bible's moral code, and Jesus taught the greatest morality in human history thats in invalid claim. Unless you mean because you have the presumption that God has to follow the same moral code that he gave to humans? Says you, not God.


Sin is a crime against God. Based on what He defines a crime against him, you have committed tons.

You are confessing Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour of your life, admitting to him you are a sinner and asking his forgiveness for your sins (crimes against God). That you believe he died on the cross for your sins and was ressurected 3 days later, for those that believe on his name will be saved.



That gift of God coming to Earth and enduring sacrifice, while completely sinless, to save you from the punishment and spiritual death you deserve for your crimes against God. All of us belong in Hell, even Christians but God through his own mercy and grace, sent his son to pay the price that we deserve. He gave his earthly life up so that we could live eternally. Considering Jesus' life is worth more than every human on Earth combined, and God didn't even have to do it, that was the ultimate gift.



Because to Christians, those religions are influenced by Satan and don't follow the One true God, therefore they are leading people to false gods. And we believe them to be false because they have less backing than Christianity. Sure, atheists don't find any evidence for Christianity but we find more for that than for any other religion. If you think the Bible has contradictions and unrealistic claims, you should read the Koran. Why do you think Islamics fly planes into buildings? Allah told them to. And of course, there promise of Paradise full of whores and little boys to sexually please the people Allah likes for eternity. One thing i find to be funny is the founder of Islam had multiple wives, valued sex highly, supported homosexuality, and the killing of the enemy by followers. Sounds an awful lot like what Allah is portrayed as...who knew Allah and Mohammed would have the exact same mind set, yet Allah is supposed to be a righteous holy God :rolleyes Or maybe we could discuss Allah talking about farting, belching, and Satan peeing in peoples ears? Of course that is the eloquent, holy talk of a righteous, sinless God :rolleyes


Jesus IS God, God the Father incarnated himself into a human body. That is Jesus Christ. God didn't start with Jesus because he created the Earth for humans, not to populate it with himself. And when God created Adam, there wasn't any need for a savior because Adam and Eve were sinless.



Crowns that are given for your deeds on earth, like righteousness, or charity etc. Isn't alot discussed about the rewards other than there are some. Maybe the more noble people on Earth get a bigger mansion in Heaven? We don't know, its fun to dream about it though.



You're right, i deserve Hell just like you, but Jesus' died on the cross for me and i believe in him, he is my Lord and Savior and he said I would have everlasting life.




Sorry, i meant eternal spiritual death. The soul is eternal and is tormented for eternity since it can't actually die. The soul is bombarded and haunted by all the sin and evil that is thrown into Hell.


Your soul is tainted and unclean, and no He can't cleanse you because you didn't accept his gift. Since Jesus was perfect, faith in him is the only way to cleanse yourself of sin. If you reject him, you remain a sinner and can't enter Heaven.


There is nothing anyone could do to me to make me send them to Hell because i'm not righteous or Holy, i deserve the punishment i would be giving them just as much. It would be hypocritical for me to punish someone when i deserve it to. I'm not righteous, Holy, infinite, or perfect. Crimes against me are temporarily damaging, crimes against God are infinite.