everlastingtongue

When I debate with theists, the two most common arguments for the existence of God I encounter are: argument by design and the “prime mover”/where did the universe come from argument. Now I’m certainly no expert on philosophy or theology but these seem, to me, entirely weak arguments.

Argument by design: I can think of hundreds of ways I could improve the universe. Wouldn’t it be nice if we had more than two sets of teeth during our lifetime? Why aren’t pets smart enough to be trained to use the toilet? Why couldn’t houseflies have a substance on their legs and mouth that acts as a sterilizing agent? And so on.

Prime Mover: How can it be so ridiculous to believe that the universe can spring into existence and evolve to this point and yet be so easy to believe that God has existed forever?

Them – “Do you think that the universe just created itself/”
Me – “Do you think that God just created him/herself?”

It just seems silly. How can any sensible person offer up either of the arguments?

I’m new here so I apologize if this has been asked a million times before.

Slavik91

Quick side note - they can be trained.

Jobar

Hello everlastingtongue, and welcome. Cool name.

I think that every atheist on this board often sings the same refrain- It just seems silly. How can any sensible person offer up either of the arguments?

Indeed, how otherwise sane and reasonable people actually believe these ancient myths is a lasting source of astonishment, and pain, and disgust, and fear.

Don't feel you have to apologize for offering up your opinions, as most all of us unbelievers agree with you completely!

Violent Messiah

JOBAR, Everlasting wasn't apologizing for his case against theism....He assumed that the statements he made were debated and discussed a million times (which they were) in previous threads. So he apologizes if any one of us find his posts with the 'been there, done that' appeal.

Newei, to the matter at hand.

TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT

Whilst I am not a supporter of this argument, I have to address your remarks.



Yes, as can I and others too.

In what sense are you thinking of reinventing the Universe - are you talking on some grand scale - like giving life on Pluto, or substituting the moon for a Sun so there wouldn't be nighttime, or giving humans mortality and the like?

THEN DO IT!

The examples you cited are based on your taste - Why not just make our teeth permanent instead of having two sets in our lifetime?

Pets to be toilet-trained?!

Why stop there? Why not give them human intelligence but not freedom from their masters so they can do all our work?

Why don't you make us immortal, free from sickness, always happy, free from problems.

Your posts should not be viewed as an intelligent argument against theism.

COSMOLOGICAL ARGUMENT

Other way around, why would you think that it's ridiculous to believe in a God that created the universe but find it so easy to believe that the Universe sprang itself into existence?

Magus55

Well we don't understand how sane and reasonable people like yourselves don't believe in the claims of Jesus. Its your opinion and nothing more. Its only a myth to you.

everlastingtongue

Exactly

TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT:

We both agree it is weak. I only pointed out silly responses to prove its frailty because I don’t consider it a real argument. An easy target like that doesn’t warrant being beaten to a bloody pulp.

COSMOLOGICAL ARGUMENT:

I say its nature you say it’s planned what’s the difference – we are both saying something came from nothing. We agree – something came from nothing. How does your argument prove that God exists?

Free Thinkr

Well, I've never heard Jesus claim anything. There's this book filled with ridiculous tales in which the authors claim some "Jesus" character made some pretty fantastic claims. Sadly, however, there is little proof to back any of them. Perhaps your worldview includes credulity.

Aquila ka Hecate

Hmmm....Magus55, do you beleive the claims of the Prophet Mohammed?

If not,why not?

After all, he's an historically-better documented character than that Jesus dude you keep going on about.

Could it beyour Western upbringing?

What in turn would this suggest to your(supposedly sane,intelligent) mind?

Wyz_sub10

I want to challenge this statement, Magus55.

You are an intelligent person, I gather. You have made many choices in your life, no doubt. I would also assume many of those choices involve your faith.

I ask you, do you really not understand how a sane and reasonable person could not believe the claims of Jesus? Or are you just saying that in defense of Jobar's words?

I would think that you have given thought to your faith, correct? I was a devout Christian for many years, but even in those years I could understand how people could doubt Christianity.

If it is about faith, then it stands to reason that the likely response is to doubt.

I think if belief in Jesus requires a leap of faith, then it is, in many ways, beyond reason.

Lobstrosity

Because people make the claim that God is intelligent. Intelligence is an incredibly complex emergent behavior. Without cause to suspect the presence of such intelligent forces, why would anyone choose the argument that requires these forces when there is an equally-good argument that is much simpler? Either way we know the universe sprang into existence. One view has it springing as the result of blind forces (you know, the kind of forces we know exist--the kind of forces that can cause radioactive isotopes to decay spontaneously yet still be devoid of intelligence). The other requires a fantastically powerful, intelligent "being" to first exist so that he can then make the universe exist. Following that line of reasoning we then require than an even more powerful and even more intelligent being probably existed in order to explain how God got here. It's a chain of complexity that is quite unnecessary at this time. Intelligence is not required to explain the existence of the universe. As such it's foolhardy to merely assume such intelligence existed.