NOGO

NOGO:
This is an opinion not a fulfilled prophecy and the name Emmanuel does not prove otherwise.

Evangelion:
Thankyou for your opinion.

You're welcome.
You seem to have trouble distinguishing between fact and opinion - quite normal for a believer.


Nogo:
I take it that you believe that early Christians thought the the end of the world was at hand and that Jesus was a "final" sign.

Evangelion:
They certainly believed this before his death and resurrection, yes. But their views certainly changed when Christ was raised.


Paul believed it and it was certainly after Jesus' death.
Please provide evidence that their views changed.

NOGO

Old news is something that happened a long time ago. Christians disagreeing is fresh news now as it was from the very start 2000 years ago.

You wanted to see stones ... you will find in the verse below ...

In the Gospel of John Jesus was a man who received the "word of God".
At times the "Word" or "Spirit" of God within Jesus would speak directly. That is why He (the Spirit of God) sometimes spoke of Jesus in the third person.

The Word was with God from the begining and create the world.
God said "Let there be light"
Therefore the Word created light. The Word was God.
The personification of the Word of God was God's firstborn (John 1)

Jesus was possessed by the Word of God.
The Spirit descended upon him after his baptism and the Father said "this is my son ..." speaking not about the man but about the Spirit descending upon the man.

When the Jesus said that he existed before Abraham was born it was the Spirit of God speaking not the man.

Magus55

Main Entry: 1Chris·tian
Pronunciation: 'kris-ch&n, 'krish-
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin christianus, adjective & n., from Greek christianos, from Christos
Date: 1526
1 a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ b (1) : DISCIPLE 2 (2) : a member of one of the Churches of Christ separating from the Disciples of Christ in 1906 (3) : a member of the Christian denomination having part in the union of the United Church of Christ concluded in 1961


Jesus taught that He was God, and the only way to obtain eternal life is to believe in Him. If you call Jesus a liar, how can you claim to be following His teachings?

Calzaer

That's pretty funny.

Magus, who claims to be a Jew, getting all pissy with someone who claims to be a Christian... when neither one of them actually fit the definitions of what they claim to be.

melinie007

It would make more sense to shop around for a dictionary definition to prove your point, because this one certainly doesn't.

I see nothing here to suggest that to be a christian requires a belief in the trinity or in the divinity of Jesus. Rather it requires that a person has a 'professed belief' in the teachings of Jesus. 'Professed belief' would mean if you say you are. That belief has to be in the teachings of jesus christ.

This is your opinion. Others may have a different interpretation of the bible and follow Jesus's teachings as they believe them to be. The word 'trinity' is not in the bible - you have a bunch of quotes to show that it is essential, Evangelion has a bunch of quotes to suit his side. Like many debates in christianity, the bible is open to different viewpoints. I don't think the dictionary definition that has been provided excludes from the defintion of 'christian' anybody with a different interpretation on the 'teachings of Jesus' then Magus.

Secular Pinoy

I'm still waiting for Magus to show that the Messiah is supposed to be divine and even co-equal with god, from the Tanakh. Or is his Jewish posturing merely a deceptive ruse?

Calzaer

It doesn't seem to be particularly deceptive. He's not fooling anyone.

NOGO

The confusion about Jesus is written all over the NT.
No wonder Christians cannot agree.

The problem is intrinsic to Christianity.
It started in confusion and the confusion remains even today.

This is one reason I do not believe in an historical Jesus.
If a single person had started this then there would not have been such confusion.

Kilgore Trout

Magus55 said:

Any Jew will tell you that "Jews for Jesus" is a contradiction in terms, yet you think you have the right to say someone is not christian just because they don't meet your definition of christian? I find that very hypocritcal.

Jesus is always vague about what he is. He never says "I am god."

In John 17:11 he says, while praying to god: "....so that they may be one just as you and I are one" ("they" refers to the apostles). This proves Jesus does not think he is god because the apostles can't be literally one in the same way that christians claim Jesus and god are supposed to be one.

Or are you calling Jesus a liar?

Magus55

What difference does it make if any Jew tells me its a contradiction of terms? Does that make them right? Of course to them its a contradiction, because they are under the impression Jews aren't "allowed" to believe in Jesus as the Messiah, which is total crap. I am a Jew, born a Jew, raised a Jew, went to synagogue, celebrate Jewish holidays, used to speak Hebrew, majority of my family is Jewish. I think i hold enough credentials just based on my birth to determine whether what I believe in is acceptable. I'm well aware mainstream Judaism doesn't accept Jesus as the Messiah, doesn't mean they are right, and I can't accept Him as the Messiah while still remaining Jewish. The Apostles worshipped Jesus, and never stopped being Jewish. Its something they were born with.

The difference between me and Evangelion is, my faith and belief as being a Jew who worships Jesus Christ is VERY Biblical, where as denying Jesus' divinity is completely against scripture, and probably heresy/blasphemy. And anyway, if Evangelion is still considered Christian, despite not following the most basic tenants of being a Christian, how can I not be Jewish, even if I don't follow what you all claim to be the basic tenants of Judaism? Talk about a double standard. And believing Jesus is God, is the entire foundation of Christianity, where as, rejecting Jesus as the Messiah isn't the foundation of Judaism - the foundation of Judaism is based on God's promise to the Jews and Israel (and God still has plans for Jews and Israel - the entire NT revolves around them - so God's promise and foundation of the Jews is still in place -the covenant just changed for the better). A Jewish Messiah is not against Judaism. The only difference being, they don't think Jesus was that Messiah, I do. That hardly disqualifies me as being a Jew.

Why are you all so obsessed with what I call myself? I am a Jew by birth, and can not get rid of my heritage even if I wanted to. But I will worship Jesus Christ to the grave.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The greeks are gentiles, or what everyone considers mainstream Christians. God didn't exclude the Jews, He said salvation comes to them first, and then the gentiles( non Jews. )



Jesus called himself the Son of God, He said I and my Father are one, He said that before Abraham was, I AM ( the same name that God told Moses to call Him in Exodus), He says, He who has seen me, has seen the Father. Its made quite clear that Jesus is God.

And to your quote of John 17:11 - that doesn't prove anything - lets look at again, in full:


Jhn 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

Jesus is referring to all the Apostles. He is asking God the Father, to keep the Apostles together as one, to spread the glory of God as a group - just as He (Jesus) and The Father are one. It has nothing to do with the Apostles and Jesus being the same.