Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Rational BAC · 05-17-2003, 11:22 AM

Well, I consider myself to be a born again Christian.

But am probably the opposite of a fundamentalist Christian.

Fundamentalists seem to have coopted this term to describe a very narrow number of Christians who believe literally the Bible. And it does seem to be very exclusionary. You have to believe A B C D and E or you are not a born aginner.

I don't know where the fundies get that from.

Not really literate Biblically, but then again Cherry Pickers like myself don't have to be.

There is something about "Ye must be born again" in the Bible, but I don't think a whole lot more than that-----aside from possibly giving away all your possessions---and I don't know anybody that really does that --fundy or non fundy.

Anyway I see 3 possible qualifications for being "born again" and probably only 1 as the slightest bit necessary.

1--------You are born again when you are baptized. After all --that is what that whole ceremony is about. Isn't it?

2------Assuming, and rightly so, you did not understand the baptismal ceremony since you were only a few weeks or a few months old---------then that is what the confirmation ceremony is all about. At the age when you have at least a little smarts, you do accept Christ.

3-----You have some type of epiphany in your life at almost any age beyond maturity--but the older the better. At that time, usually during a very bad time in your life, you feel you have had a very personal experience with Jesus and proclaim Him as your saviour. And you feel a whole lot better about things.

Now I qualify on all 3 points.

Was baptized, was confirmed. And I did have a bad time in my life and sincerely believed that Jesus did rescue me from that bad time (as irrational as that may be----never said I was a completely rational born aginner Christian) And I did feel a whole lot better about myself and my salvation.

But, back to basics------I think that only the baptismal is really necessary for anyone to be born again. The rest is just frosting.

I know there are some theists on this forum. Anyone want to dispute this? Non-theists welcome too.

JCS · 05-17-2003, 12:34 PM

I qualify on only 2 points

1) Baptism: No choice, was to young to realize where the heck I was.

2) Confirmation: Again no choice, parents insistence that it wouldn't hurt me and it would be good for me, and boy were they right. The exposure to the whole construct that some unsubstantiated entity would condemn us for its own failings but will forgive us for its own failings opened my eyes real wide.

But not 3) The Jebus charactor couldn't even save himself so why would one think he could save anyone else?

I think 2, figuratively speaking was my born again experience. Of course I view this re-birthing process as a liberation from the belief systems, rather than a confirmation or commitment to such. I guess that would make me a born again non-theist, such as I was when my first birth took place. Guess I had it right the first time.

Rational BAC · 05-17-2003, 12:35 PM

This thread seems to be dying.

Not as many theists here as I thought I guess.

Can easily understand why an atheist or agnostic would probably have no interest in the subject.

Rational BAC · 05-17-2003, 12:41 PM

Well JCS----

It does show that confirmation worked for you----although not in the way usually intended.

That is what confirmation is for isn't it? At least you confirmed something.

Starboy · 05-17-2003, 12:42 PM

Rational you had a good bit of beginners luck with your first thread. Part of it I think was because it did contain elements of common ground for the Christian and atheist.

Starboy

Tarnaak · 05-17-2003, 12:51 PM

According to the Bible being baptised is not the point that one is "saved" or "born again". Baptism is the physical act of acknowledging that you want to be born of the Spirit. Only after the Holy Spirit is "poured" on you are you born again and the Spirit will only come to you once you have accepted Christ as your Lord and Saviour.

Hope that clears it up for you

JCS · 05-17-2003, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Baptism is the physical act of acknowledging that you want to be born of the Spirit.

I agree with this, in that it should be a choice made by the individual, not the parent. Why bother baptizing infants when their physical acts are limited to crapping their pants and crying for more sustenance so that they can repeat that process?

Rational BAC · 05-17-2003, 02:03 PM

Tarnaak---

I don't really see the difference. The ceremony of baptism (or Christening) of an infant definitely seems to be a born again ceremony. (Reading the words to the ceremony anyway.)

I would think that baptism would be the beginning middle and end-all of becoming a Christian --per the Bible.

It is possible that baptism at the age of an infant is a little premature. Perhaps the Baptists have that part figured out better than Episcopalians.

But still, it does seem that once baptized --you are born again.

After all a baptized infant, if he or she dies immediately after, is guaranteed heaven--

N'est-ce pas?

Tarnaak · 05-17-2003, 02:10 PM

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

To be born of the Spirit one must ask.....

Sabine Grant · 05-17-2003, 02:15 PM

Bonjour rational ABC...I am not sure baptism is a requirement to be " born again". I thought since my conversion that we are born of the Spirit of God once we establish sincerely that Christ died for our sins. ( sincerely is the key). When I was baptized, it was more so an act of personal aknowledgement and publicaly that indeed I am to follow Christ.
I do not consider baptism to be part of the salvation process. Nor do I believe that it has to be done by immersion or by "sprinkling water" to be a sincere act from the believer. The state of " heart" or mind of the believer is what God examines.
I am very lurry of all the extra requirements several denominations demand to confirm salvation. " believe in me and you shall be saved". No other requirement. Faith. " your faith has healed you". Pure, bold, immuable, sincere faith.

05-17-2003, 11:22 AM	#1
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	What is a born again Christian? Well, I consider myself to be a born again Christian. But am probably the opposite of a fundamentalist Christian. Fundamentalists seem to have coopted this term to describe a very narrow number of Christians who believe literally the Bible. And it does seem to be very exclusionary. You have to believe A B C D and E or you are not a born aginner. I don't know where the fundies get that from. Not really literate Biblically, but then again Cherry Pickers like myself don't have to be. There is something about "Ye must be born again" in the Bible, but I don't think a whole lot more than that-----aside from possibly giving away all your possessions---and I don't know anybody that really does that --fundy or non fundy. Anyway I see 3 possible qualifications for being "born again" and probably only 1 as the slightest bit necessary. 1--------You are born again when you are baptized. After all --that is what that whole ceremony is about. Isn't it? 2------Assuming, and rightly so, you did not understand the baptismal ceremony since you were only a few weeks or a few months old---------then that is what the confirmation ceremony is all about. At the age when you have at least a little smarts, you do accept Christ. 3-----You have some type of epiphany in your life at almost any age beyond maturity--but the older the better. At that time, usually during a very bad time in your life, you feel you have had a very personal experience with Jesus and proclaim Him as your saviour. And you feel a whole lot better about things. Now I qualify on all 3 points. Was baptized, was confirmed. And I did have a bad time in my life and sincerely believed that Jesus did rescue me from that bad time (as irrational as that may be----never said I was a completely rational born aginner Christian) And I did feel a whole lot better about myself and my salvation. But, back to basics------I think that only the baptismal is really necessary for anyone to be born again. The rest is just frosting. I know there are some theists on this forum. Anyone want to dispute this? Non-theists welcome too.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-17-2003, 12:34 PM	#2
JCS Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: right over there Posts: 753	I qualify on only 2 points 1) Baptism: No choice, was to young to realize where the heck I was. 2) Confirmation: Again no choice, parents insistence that it wouldn't hurt me and it would be good for me, and boy were they right. The exposure to the whole construct that some unsubstantiated entity would condemn us for its own failings but will forgive us for its own failings opened my eyes real wide. But not 3) The Jebus charactor couldn't even save himself so why would one think he could save anyone else? I think 2, figuratively speaking was my born again experience. Of course I view this re-birthing process as a liberation from the belief systems, rather than a confirmation or commitment to such. I guess that would make me a born again non-theist, such as I was when my first birth took place. Guess I had it right the first time.

05-17-2003, 12:35 PM	#3
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	This thread seems to be dying. Not as many theists here as I thought I guess. Can easily understand why an atheist or agnostic would probably have no interest in the subject.

05-17-2003, 12:41 PM	#4
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Well JCS---- It does show that confirmation worked for you----although not in the way usually intended. That is what confirmation is for isn't it? At least you confirmed something.

05-17-2003, 12:42 PM	#5
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Rational you had a good bit of beginners luck with your first thread. Part of it I think was because it did contain elements of common ground for the Christian and atheist. Starboy

05-17-2003, 12:51 PM	#6
Tarnaak Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: USA Posts: 106	According to the Bible being baptised is not the point that one is "saved" or "born again". Baptism is the physical act of acknowledging that you want to be born of the Spirit. Only after the Holy Spirit is "poured" on you are you born again and the Spirit will only come to you once you have accepted Christ as your Lord and Saviour. Hope that clears it up for you

05-17-2003, 02:03 PM	#8
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Tarnaak--- I don't really see the difference. The ceremony of baptism (or Christening) of an infant definitely seems to be a born again ceremony. (Reading the words to the ceremony anyway.) I would think that baptism would be the beginning middle and end-all of becoming a Christian --per the Bible. It is possible that baptism at the age of an infant is a little premature. Perhaps the Baptists have that part figured out better than Episcopalians. But still, it does seem that once baptized --you are born again. After all a baptized infant, if he or she dies immediately after, is guaranteed heaven-- N'est-ce pas?

05-17-2003, 02:10 PM	#9
Tarnaak Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: USA Posts: 106	Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. To be born of the Spirit one must ask.....

05-17-2003, 02:15 PM	#10
Sabine Grant Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 32,364	Bonjour rational ABC...I am not sure baptism is a requirement to be " born again". I thought since my conversion that we are born of the Spirit of God once we establish sincerely that Christ died for our sins. ( sincerely is the key). When I was baptized, it was more so an act of personal aknowledgement and publicaly that indeed I am to follow Christ. I do not consider baptism to be part of the salvation process. Nor do I believe that it has to be done by immersion or by "sprinkling water" to be a sincere act from the believer. The state of " heart" or mind of the believer is what God examines. I am very lurry of all the extra requirements several denominations demand to confirm salvation. " believe in me and you shall be saved". No other requirement. Faith. " your faith has healed you". Pure, bold, immuable, sincere faith.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.