Biff the unclean

Magus55 Two questions.

If there was no God what would have happened differently at the WTC?

Where in the Bible does God give man free will? I see him giving rules, drowning most of the world, forbidding the knowledge of good and evil, and making so many laws that no one could follow them all (shell fish? gimme a break) But I don't see him handing out free will or ever honoring it in the Bible. In fact, I don't think the subject ever comes up.

winstonjen

If god dies, will his frail old body crack when it hits the ground? Or will he just disappear?

crownboy

I think two great points have been made so far on this thread:

1. If god supposedly values our free will, and indeed has made our life so that "free will" is even above our own well being (i.e.: we are free to make decisions that can be destructive to our persons), then he should be very scrupulous to ensure that every human maintains that free will. However, by allowing the 9/11 terrorists to excercise their "free will" against the free will of those killed in the attacks (unless you can prove that everyone killed in the trade center desired to be killed, but I'm pretty sure not even the theist would try to say this), god reduced the free will of those killed in the attack, who would most assuredly would have chosen not to be killed if they had their choice. If someone elses free will can override mine, then I don't have free will, and it's silly to say god granted it to me, when in fact he's made it so that I cannot fully excersise it.

2. The god as described in the bible most certainly did not have the libertarian ideal of "free will" that theists seem to be seeing. The examples of god meddling in human affairs in the bible are too numerous to mention entirely, but to mention just one, think of how the free will of those 42 Isrealite children were infringed upon by the penalty they had to pay for their jocular observations of the bald pate of a rather choleric prophet of god. Of course, the very fact that we are born imperfect and not given the same "free will" choice Adam and Eve enjoyed to choose good and evil (provided that you buy the interpretation of these events in the "orthodox" way), and, according to the bible, are inclined to do bad, is a great restriction on our free will that is entirely of god's invention to begin with.

spurly

Biff the Unclean:

From the very beginning of time with the first people God created he gave them free will. He created them to pour out all of his love on them and be loved them. But he gave them a choice.

Choice #1: We can hang out together, love each other, and enjoy each other's company. I can love you, you can love me. And we can live in perfect harmony like that forever. Or

Choice #2:
You can choose not to love me. I will not force you to love me because love can not be forced. So I am going to give you an option. If you choose not to love me, you can eat of this other tree. You can try to be your own God, your own boss, so to speak. However, if you do that, you will be cut off from the source of life, and death will be inevitable result.

Then, all through history God gives his people choices. Today we have the same choice. Enjoy a relationship of love with our Creator and Savior, and sustainer, or walk away from it to our own demise.

It is a theme that is built into the fabric of Scripture.

Kevin

Rhea

Why on earth would it break his heart? His children are now suckling at his bosom. How is that bad? Isn't leaving them on earth to suffer more infinitely more heartbreaking?

I don't get it. Why would it break God's heart for people to die and be brought to perfection in him?



Is this another example of Christians doing their level best to avoid like the plague any possibility of hastening their meeting with their maker?

Why do they do that, anyway?

Magus55

Well, in our opinion, with no God the evil in the world would self destruct itself and take over, in which case civilization probably wouldn't have survived long enough to get to 9/11. But assuming it did survive up until that point, I'd say there would be less unity in the world from it, more destraught families committing suicide or losing touch with reality due to lack of comfort. Less people would have lived etc. Don't really know, since I don't believe in a world where God doesn't exist, can't really speculate what it would be like without Him. Hell on earth probably.

God gave man free will at the creation of Adam and Even in the Garden by putting the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in there. That triggered free will by giving Adam and Eve the ability to choose between obeying God or disobeying. Of course, they used that free will to disobey and everything went downhill from there.

spurly

Why did it break God's heart? The same reason the death of Lazarus broke the heart of Jesus, even though he would soon raise him from the dead.

The effects that sin has on humanity breaks the heart of God. That's why Jesus wept before raising Lazarus from the dead. He saw the way sin had destroyed the lives of the people he created to live forever. It was never supposed to be this way.

The last enemy of God to be defeated is death. One day it will be defeated forever. Until then, God's heart will continue to be broken as Satan uses sin and death to wreak havoc on earth.

Kevin

Magus55

God has emotions just like us ( hence created in God's image). Of course, his reactions and emotions are so beyond ours to be undescribable. God is upset when we disobey Him or hurt ourselves. He loves us more than anything and wants us to stop sinning and accept his eternal gift. Some of the people in the towers probably weren't saved, so God is upset that they rejected Him and lost their chance to find salvation. God wants NO one to go to Hell, so obviously He is gonna be heart broken when some choose to do so.

winstonjen

And of course it would be god's fault for letting them have free will in the first place, know FULL WELL what they would use it for, and going ahead with god's plan to CONDEMN THEM ALL TO HELL.

spurly

Winstonjen, I can see how some people would say it was God's fault. However, if God had chosen to do things differently and not give us free will we would be calling him a tyrant and we would resent him completely. We can't have it both ways.

Giving us free will was the most loving thing God could do. Now the choice is up to us - you and me.

Kevin