Magus55

Starboy, do you really think peace could exist, even if Christians accepted others for what they are? Just on another thread here, Captain Howdy called me an idiot and having the intelligence of a rodent ( which btw, is so far of its not even funny) - just because i don't believe or accept the same things He does. Acceptance isn't just required on the part of Christians. I would say Atheists are more harsh and unaccepting of Christians just because we believe in a God we can't see, and don't follow Macroevolution/Big Bang ( some of us anyway).

Starboy

Magus55, Captain Howdy's remark is regrettable but understandable. Don't get me wrong; I have no idea how your intelligence ranks WRT rodents or even if the rodents should be offended. I wish to remind you that this is an atheist website and that many of the religious show up here full of sh...faith acting as if what they have to say is something new to many of the atheists that frequent this board. I must commend IID on its tolerance since they not only allow this to happen but openly encourage it. What seems to surprise you is that most if not all of the atheists on this board do not find you or your arguments particularly convincing. Perhaps if you spent more time asking questions and listening to the atheist's point of view (an activity that would be considered civil since this is an atheist board) you would learn more about atheism, the world and perhaps your own religion. Tolerance is granting to atheists the same right you give yourself, that is to think and believe as you wish.

Starboy

Sabine Grant

Starboy.. thank you for your sincere reply. I face christian untolerance as much as you do. At least you become a subject of " how can we seduce him in our faith" as an atheist whereas I find myself hitting brick walls when I declare my support to the separation of Church and State for example to other christians.
The chastizing of christians on other christians is a reality some of us live with.
My point is that some christians do not fit in the generalizations you made as well as Opera Nut's. It does not make our job easy to attempt to make christianity a noble cause when both sides join into the " stoning".
The reality Starboy is that we may be side by side in similar fights for freedom and tolerance. We face the common threat of the lack of individual freedom. ( I take it you realize I do not rejoice over the so called spiritual enlightment of the present Bush administration). As we waste our time as atheists or christians looking for failures to point to, the real ennemy loaded with deciet and lies will take away individual freedom.
And I am not an american citizen... but it certainly grabs my heart to see democratic principles be placed in jeopardy under the banner of a god who has nothing to do with the God I believe in.
And I am not alone. The few (about two) christian friends I discuss anything with also feel the same way.
Christianity is slowly spliting up in the US Starboy. We are not a whole entire group under the same banner anylonger. We do not seem to follow the same Christ. Two camps.. those who support theocracy and those who will rebel and ask for evidence of the character of Christ. Any claim that " god said so" will be challenged by comparing those words with Christ 's life.
I deplore that you have had such negative relationships with christians who made it their personal agenda to convert you. We have such a way to repell people with our determination to change them. When it is about changing ourselves.

On another topic, my daughter will be going to FSU this fall. Hubby and I will be visiting her often ( we live in Tampa). If you come our way, let us know. I think you will enjoy meeting my hubby and I am not too bad at fixing french delicacies. I love Tallahassee by the way. My former husband and his family are from there. His father taught at FSU and I was "initiated" to the Noles phenomena to the point of being careful to never purchase for his relatives a Lacoste shirt or Gatorade! ( I still cannot understand american football!).
Have a good evening!

Starboy

Sabine, I welcome a discussion to find common ground. It is something you don't see many Christians practicing on this board. I don't think that all Christians are intolerant, but certainly there are enough to have become a powerful force in US politics. I hope I am just being overly sensitive to the situation, but there are so many thoughtless statements being spouted from the mouths of Christians these days that it is hard to be at ease.

Thank you for your kind offer. I don't get to Tampa much anymore, but If I do I'll take you up on it. If you are in Tallahasse on a new moon evening let me know and perhaps if the weather cooperates I can give you and your family a tour of the universe.

Don't worry about my color preferences or my interest in football. I went to FSU back in the days when they couldn't give away tickets to the game even with a 50 cents off a Whopper cupon on the back and sitting right there on the counter of Burger King.

Starboy

Opera Nut

Thank you for that explanation, Paperstreet, of how real Jews think of Messianic Jews.

I read a statement in a previous post, that Messianic Jews accept the New Testament. Well, if they are real jews they would only accept the Pentateuch - Genesis Exodus Leviticus Deuteronomy and Numbers.

This should explain things well. A quote from http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/j4j-2000/index.html:

"In 2001, the Jews for Jesus missionary organization launched their broadest and most aggressive evangelistic crusade ever. Jews for Jesus has committed $22 million to a five-year global “BEHOLD YOUR GOD” (BYG) campaign that seeks to make Jesus an unavoidable issue to the Jewish people. Cities outside of Israel with Jewish populations in excess of 25,000 have been specifically targeted for this campaign.

"According to Jews for Jesus, the success in eighteen cities so far, including Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles, Portland, San Francisco and Tampa, has already netted over 300 Jewish conversions; 2,200 Gentile professions of faith in Jesus; 19,000 Jews and Gentiles interested in further information and over 6 million missionary flyers distributed. In response to this assault on the Jewish community, the Jewish Council for Public Affairs passed a resolution on June 10, 2002 critical of misleading and aggressive proselytizing and urging Jewish communities to mobilize against this threat. A number of mainstream Christian denominations have issued their own statements condemning the actions of deceptive missionary groups like Jews for Jesus.

"Jews for Jesus will target numerous cities in 2003. These include Cleveland, Dallas, Seattle, Toronto, West Palm, London, Paris, Sydney and Rio de Janeiro.

"Jews for Judaism representatives assisted the Jewish communities of Atlanta, Boston and West Hartford, in responding to BYG and developed recommendations for the Jewish media about how to report the event without overtly promoting the goals of Jews for Jesus,

"In December of 2002, Jews for Judaism launched a successful response to the Los Angeles BYG campaign. Jews for Judaism’s game plan can serve as a model to assist other communities.

"Jews for Judaism spearheaded the Los Angeles Jewish Community’s response, which we entitled “Missionary Impossible.” With the assistance of Rabbi Mark Diamond of the Board of Rabbis of Southern California, we created a Task Force of laypeople, rabbis from the Conservative, Orthodox, Reconstructionist and Reform denominations of Judaism, and representatives from the JCRC and Hillel.

"Prior to and during BYG, Jews for Judaism organized over 50 lectures throughout the community.

"Speakers included representatives from Jews for Judaism’s international offices, a former Jew for Jesus and a former evangelical minister/missionary who had renounced his beliefs and converted to Judaism. Titles for these presentations included, The Target Is You, Battle For The Jewish Soul, Missionary Impossible and A Former Missionary Fights Back. All programs were publicized through flyers, ads in the Jewish media, and the Jews for Judaism and Jewish Federation’s web pages

"Jews for Judaism also held an in-depth counter-missionary Survival Seminar at the Skirball Culture Center. This seminar was the first step in training a core group of volunteers to counter-leaflet Jews for Jesus street evangelists. We modeled our counter-leafleting campaign on the Task Force on Cults and Missionaries of the JCRC of Greater New York, and held several additional training sessions to insure the professionalism of our team. Jews for Judaism produced special T-shirts and tote bags with “TASKFORCE” emblazoned in large letters. A special flyer was produced entitled, “Truth In Advertising,” that pointed out the deceptive nature of Jews for Jesus as well as condemnation of their activities by both Jewish and Christian clergy.

"Our most powerful response came in the form of a community-wide Unity Shabbat. With the help of the Los Angeles Jewish Federation, we ran two full-page ads in the local Jewish newspaper, entitled “One Thing All Jews Can Agree On,” announcing a special Unity Shabbat. On the Shabbat prior to the start of Behold Your God, 32 synagogues of all denominations dedicated special time to prepare their members for the Jews for Jesus missionary onslaught. Jews for Judaism prepared 3 educational pieces that were distributed and studied by over 5000 people who participated in this special Unity Shabbat.

"Jews for Judaism also ran a full-page ad in the Los Angeles Jewish Journal, which featured “7 Answers to Jews for Jesus.” The response was immediate and positive. One such example was received a few days after the ad ran in an email from a 16-year-old Jewish high school student. She shared with us that she had been confronted by a Jews for Jesus missionary and successfully utilized the information from this ad to fend off their attempts to convert her.

"Jews for Judaism is available to assist and tailor a response for your Jewish community."

================

BTW, Nazis WERE Christians. Hitler was Catholic and the Nazi motto was "God is With Us" (Gott Mit Uns). You cannot weasel your way out of that. That was an extreme case of Christians trying to literally destroy Jews and Jewish culture, as had happened many times before with the Inquisition, expulsion of Jews from various countries, stuffing them in ghettos, restricting their professions, mass slaughters and mass conversions (Felix Mendelssohn is a good example), etc.

I know nothing about French Jews. i was told that Yiddish is Medieval German by a Classical Reform rabbi's wife, who is a doctor and speaks Yiddish. I figured she is an authoritative source on that as a speaker of it.

Starboy, you make some excellent points about the intolerance of Xtians. As you said, anybody who automatically wants to convert any non Christian to their religion, and believes that if they don't convert, that they will go to hell is definitely intolerant, and there is no way around it. Many of the notable Christian preachers in this society make horrible and hateful statements about non-Christians and how they are "ruining America" and then they wonder why other people attack them. They really do hate other people, and want to convert them, they just try to cover it up in sweet talk.

I was raised in the Presbyterian church and got my BA from a Presbyterian university. My parents would not have sent me to Baylor, which is Baptist, or TCU, any other hick bible college where the religion classes are merely indoctrination and force feeding. I felt fortunate to be raised in a liberal church with educated people in it, instead of bible thumpers, even though I am not a Christian at all. I don't know of any fundie theologians who have been to a real seminary at a real Ivy league university like Harvard or Princeton.

I think I can tell the difference between liberal educated Christians and ignorant literalist bible thumpers who get in your face and demand to knwo if you are saved or not.

I have been around fundies and they are arrogant, self righteous, and stupid. As I have said, I had to slash my wrists because I thought that death was the only way to get away from their constant criticism of me, and that the only message I got from them was that I was never good enough, that me and everyone else was a worthless piece of shit, and even praying my ass off, singing in the choir, and all wasn't gonna please Big Daddy in the Sky.

That is socially sanctioned emotional and mental abuse, and I had to leave. I never got any kind of insulting coercion from the educated Christians I have been around, and that includes Presbyterians, Congregationalists, some Methodists and Episcopalians.

There seem to be two divisions in American Christianity, the liberals and the fundies. And I think I have explained the differences between them pretty well.

I still have had no experience of God or evidence that he exists and nobody can convince me otherwise until something happens to me that I could call a religious experience. Fundies just don't "get it" that I can be happy without being just like them.
Fundies are threatened by diversity in America; liberals are not.
I see other cultures as a learning opportunity, not a threat.

spurly

Starboy:

I'm just catching up on some of the posts I missed this weekend. In going back and reading over many of your posts on this thread it seems that you are really upset that Christians tell the story of God's love for mankind to people that they meet.

But I ask you, how could a Christian really do anything else. That love has transformed us. That love has brought us peace. That love has led to extreme joy.

It's sort of like when one first falls in love - they want everyone to know about it.

I am one of those people who love to tell the story of the incredible love of God. However, I can not, by the very nature of that love, every force anyone to accept that love. All I can do is tell the story. It is the most loving thing I can do.

If they accept it - great. If they don't - I just keep loving them. It does not change my relationship with them at all.

Why are you so upset that Christ told us to tell the story of the incredible love of God?

Kevin

Bree

There's a whole lot more to the story than just the "incredible love of God" I'm afraid.

Starboy

Spurly, what planet are you from? Everyone in the US has heard the "story" hundreds if not thousands of times. There are laws against telemarketers being so intrusive but the religious can be as obnoxious as they like. Spurly I suggest you go back and read my posts carefully, because not only are proselytizing Christians intolerant but what they claim is downright fraud.

Starboy

mike_decock

Because that cult caused many of us to despise ourselves. That cult prevented many of us from having a sense of peace until we broke free from the mental enslavement. That cult was the greatest barrier for many of us to finally find joy.

I hope you can understand why many of us get upset when the fraud is shoved down our throats everywhere we turn.

-Mike...

spurly

Just for clarification, what do you mean by the phrase, "shoved down our throats"?

Kevin