HelenM

Best wishes getting through each day until the 16th. I was wondering if he'd given you a date yet. I'm glad he has.

As for his comments on your questions, I'm glad he was so respectful. As for his comment about you and the kingdom, to me that seems to indicate a lack of understanding on his part, of how complete your loss of faith is. He's responding to you as if you were a 'Christian in distress', so it seems to me - he's trying to reassure you that your faith can 'recover' from where it is now. Which indicates he hasn't understood why you shared your questions with him, yet.

Nevertheless, that sort of comment from him might be just what your wife needs to give her some hope to get her through the short term. So, even if he's missing the mark with you on your questions, he might be saying things that are meaningful to her. Did you show her his answer?

take care
Helen

p.s. edited to add, I did see the teasing but I was ignoring it!

[ November 30, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>

Blankman

LOL. You must have great self control to keep a straight face after that one! I guess you could have told her she was half right? I hope the pastor doesn't center his counseling on de-converting you. Good Luck.

Goliath

x-xian,

I'm glad that your wife was impressed with your letter. However, I cannot realisitically imagine how the pastor could possibly not immediately take your wife's side. It seems as though your marriage is more doomed than it was before.

Of course, I hope I'm wrong.

Sincerely,

Goliath

HelenM

x-xian, the irony to me is that what the Bible says is on your side and not your wife's, regarding whether she can walk away from the marriage just because you're an unbeliever. It says she may not. I think I already linked to the passage that says that, earlier in this thread.

So, if the pastor you're seeing believes the Bible is true and authoritative I don't see how he can do anything other than encourage your wife to 'obey' its teachings, which are that she must stay married to you unless you start abusing her or start being unfaithful to her.

(The exception for abuse is more indirectly than directly from the Bible, fwiw)

I can understand why people here would be concerned about the dynamics of a meeting between you, a non-Christian and two Christians. Maybe that will be difficult for you in various ways. But hopefully on the specific issue of whether your wife has grounds (Biblical or otherwise), for leaving you, your wife will be the one in the minority in thinking she does have.

Helen

agapeo

With all due respects for your insights Goliath it seems to me that x-xian and his wife are making progress. However slight that may appear. In any marital relationship where a schism has occured it (schism) didn't happened over nite and it sure isn't going to be fixed over nite. So I personally would hold out "hope" for them. Despite the great gulf that separates them. I definitely wouldn't say it's "doomed".

As an aside: While I recognize that this forum's purpose is to provide support for the members, part of that support IMO in this particular situation is that which would help to reconcile the relationship. I would imagine that x-xian and his wife have a lot invested in the relationship (not counting the kids) to merely say to him: "It's doomed."

Goliath

agapeo,

For now, yes they are. I don't recall having said otherwise.

Again, I don't disagree, and I never voiced disagreement. Do you enjoy putting words in my mouth?

This is where we differ. Since I can't realistically imagine how seeing a pastor could possibly help the marriage in any way, shape, or form, I don't see how things are going to be better in the short term after visiting said pastor.

Yes, and part of the support that I've been attempting to render is to warn x-xian not to go to a pastor for marriage counseling. Note that this is support, and (unlike some of the support offered in this thread by theists) it is secular support.

Sincerely,

Goliath

HelenM

My only comment is - in anything I have ever said about an atheist going with a theist to talk to a theist about their marriage, the thought behind it has always been: going to someone your spouse trusts is better than going to someone they don't trust

It seems to me that's exactly what x-xianis doing and so, I can imagine that possibly being helpful.

Helen

p.s. edited because I remembered I had also said in effect that a conservative Christian would be constrained by his/her belief system to say a Christian wife may not leave her atheist husband unless he leaves her. Which means a conservative Christian would agree with an atheist husband married to a Christian, who wants to stay married, against his Christian wife, who wants to leave.

So basically I had two main reasons for what I said, not one, the first one being "Go to someone your spouse trusts" and the second being "Go to someone who will - if they lean in either direction - lean in the one you lean in which is that you'd prefer to save the marriage than end it".

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: HelenM ]</p>

Vorkosigan

Has your wife ever read the stuff here in the S&S forum? Or maybe in the Atheist testimony thread? Maybe you could scare the shit out of her by showing all the examples of people whose marriages failed when the Christian spouse decided they couldn't live with an atheist.

agapeo

Then allow me to quote you again.
To be more doomed is not exactly an indication of progress being made and yet you agree that progress is being made. So exactly how is their relationship more doomed?
Those words were my words, obviously. If they had been your words then I would of kept my mouth shut.
I can understand your position and for you it might be true. Most likely because your mind is made up. But if I personally thought that it would be possible to restore my marriage to some degree of what it was prior to a schism I would consider that possibility. What's important is the relationship. It seems to me that that is what is important to x-xian.

I think that some seem to think that being a Christian and being a counselor are inseparable. If (only if) I were the one giving the counseling in this situation my counsel would be more towards the wife. And that counsel would be something along the line of: Get your head outta your ass. But I wouldn't put it quite that way.
So, if I mention that it might be beneficial to for x-xian to see his wife's pastor that equates to being non-secular support? I'm not suggesting he become a Christian and all his problems will magically disappear. If the pastor's thrust during the counseling session would be such, I would suggest that x-xian walk out myself. He will never know until he goes.

Is it considered appropriate support for x-xian to suggest that he dumps [edited derogatory term, pescifish] because it's doomed due to the fact that she is a Christian? Am I putting words into your mouth?

I want to know what this secular support is when the attitude by some seems to suggest – "Face it man, your marriage is doomed, so you might as well get on with your life."

[edited to remove derogatory term. Also, please keep in mind that this forum is not for debate or arguments. pescifish, moderator]

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: pescifish ]</p>

Goliath

agapeo,

I agree that up to the point when x-xian agreed to go see the pastor, they had made a bit of progress. My quote above asserts that seeing the pastor is a bad idea for them, and that such a move could possibly make the marriage more doomed than before.

Please, pay attention!

No, because I can't imagine how seeing a pastor could possibly be in any way beneficial to x-xian's marriage.

As would I. And I would not do something that I thought would immediately rip it apart.

I guess I'll take your words at face value here, but if this is the kind of counseling that you'd give, then you seem to be in a very, VERY slim minority of xians in the US.

IMO, yes it is. Such a solution is from a theistic viewpoint, not a secular one.

No! He should dump [derogatory term removed] not because she's a xian, but because she will not tolerate his atheism. Are you capable of seeing the difference?

Yes.

Again you put words in my mouth. My support consisted mainly of a warning to x-xian not to see his wife's pastor.

Sincerely,

Goliath

[edited to remove quote of agapeo's use of derogatory term as well as Goliath's additional use. Also, please keep in mind this forum is is not for debates or arguments. pescifish, moderator]

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: pescifish ]</p>