Alonzo Fyfe

I do not find it all beyond the realm of possibility that we could be heading into the next inquisition.

The present policy is a message of hate carried through three programs, largely aimed at teaching hate to school children: a hate that, history tells us, children carry with them into adulthood with almost no chance that it will ever be displaced.

(1) The Pledge of Allegiance, with the words 'under God', gives atheists the same normative status that the term 'indivisibile' gives to rebels, that the phrase 'with liberty' gives to tyrants, and the phrase 'and justice for all' gives to perpetrators of injustice. It says nothing less than 'atheists are evil.'

(2) The posting of 'In God We Trust' carries the message that the population is to be divided into two groups: a "we" (the allies, those who belong, the insiders) who trusts in God, and a "them" (the enemy, those who do not belong, the outsiders) who do not belong.

(3) The posting of th 10 Commandments. Again, the first four of these give moral permission to disregard the well being of those who follow different religions, and those who follow no religion at all. Such people have the same moral status as murderers and thieves.

Prayer and bible-reading in schools, paid legislative chaplins, religious statues in the city park and nativity scenes on the courthouse lawn . . . these are all quite mild and non-threatening, compared to the policies that are currently finding success in several parts of the world.

Those policies are not the policies successfully challenged in the past that implicitly endorse a religion, they explicitly aim to deliver the message that atheists are not welcome here, atheists are evil.

And once enough people learn that message. Well, history tells as that there is no limit to where those who are caught up in a religious fervor are willing to carry those types of thoughts.

Mecha_Dude

Yet antother reason to add to the llist of Why I want to move to canada

Toto

Let's not go overboard, and look like we are paranoid. (I know, even paranoids have real enemies.)

No one believes in the Inquisition any more. No one will lock you up for the wrong theology.

Even GW Bush and Joe Lieberman have said that there are many moral people with no faith at all.

The real danger, I think, is that atheism will become socially irrelevant and marginalized. It is already the case that a politician who wants to hold a major office and wield the power that comes with that, cannot reveal his or her atheism. People in business area at a disadvantage if they don't belong to a church. The sort of civil service jobs (in government or industry) that gave a decent income and protection to people with unconventional views are becoming less relevant, as everything is "teamwork" and corporate spirit.

There are people who assume that the group "Atheists United" must be some kind of a joke. That's the real problem.

GaryP

There is not a chance of anything like an Inquisition, but the "mild" things you list above have given christians an even greater feeling of entitlement than they would have otherwise had.

GaryP

But Toto, it already is and has been since probably the death of Robert Ingersoll. The pledge ruling has opened a door for Atheists to speak out and make a cogent argument for separation.

It should be easy for people to understand that the Free Exercise clause is intended for citizens, not govt. entities. If Atheist groups could stick to that messge, maybe many theists would begin to understand.

capsaicin67

"The real danger, I think, is that atheism will become socially irrelevant and marginalized. It is already the case that a politician who wants to hold a major office and wield the power that comes with that, cannot reveal his or her atheism. People in business area at a disadvantage if they don't belong to a church. The sort of civil service jobs (in government or industry) that gave a decent income and protection to people with unconventional views are becoming less relevant, as everything is "teamwork" and corporate spirit."

My feelings are pretty much in line with this. There seems to be a great deal of momentum picking up to promote the religious extremists' agendas. The direction things are moving in does not bode well for free and independent thinking of any sort. And as you state, the corporate hivemind does not allow much dissent---too many of us need the jobs that have healthcare benefits etc. And the small, independently employed, person is an endangered species. Also, the global, corporate marketplace is dragging down the stability of making workers' rights, and rewards, in this country, a priority. Corporations feel that it is not competitive to not screw the employees that they extract wealth from. So when that becomes the best opportunity that we all have left, and it already is in a position to exploit us and oppress us [I try to not be too nutty about this sort of thing, I think its complicated and it is tough to be anti-corporate and pro-jobs----another thread perhaps]A lot of independent or skeptical thought or vocal dissent is going to be hurting.
I know, for example, that I do not write letters to the editor of the local paper precisely because I know that the management of my corporation are petty, ignorant, and sleazy. I do not trust them to not have me railroaded based on their ignorance and prejudice. I do not think I will be picked up on the street by a black van anytime soon, and tortured for a confession or conversion-----but I do think that there could be increasing cultural prejudice that will influence the day to day access to various opportunities. And that the spin will be so powerful and effective at squelching the credibility of rational thought and metaphysical naturalism, as well as self-determination and humanistic perspectives, that poor thinking will be spun into fashion. The outcome IMHO is that poor thinking skills leads to many sorts of dangerous possibilites with real, tangible, measurable, negative results for humanity and liberty. If we are not allowed/encouraged to think well, then what will be left but to follow others blindly?

Another angle on all this is the whole drift away from the Enlightenment principles that I truly believe were the genuine foundation of the vision for this country. While there were many founders apparently involved in or thinking about various religions and metaphysical ideas, an understanding that is dying on the vine is that while they were informed by, and a product of, the history of western civilization and traditions, the most recent and influential one------and the one they intended to launch from and build on-----was the Enlightenment, not xianity. Concepts like liberty and justice for all. And I believe that a Deistic perspective was the cutting edge of that inclination at that time. It was the next step in the evolution of society toward a more mature and developed metaphysical perspective. I think that they pushed the envelope as far as they thought that they could and still hold it all together at the time, and I believe that Jefferson was at least one of the uber-educated that figured that as science advanced it would naturally drift further in that direction and naturally evolve toward that end based on "common sense". However, it does not seem to be working that way. American society is backsliding and it's possible they overestimated with regard to human nature and the American people. I hope there is still a chance to get this back on course, but I believe we are at a critical crossroads where nontheists, and those with a love and respect for liberty and justice for all, will have to really muster some momentum and resources and act to get the wind blowing for a more positive heading.

Alonzo Fyfe

Come, now. The statement, "I do not find it all beyond the realm of possibility..." is not logically equivalent to "HEAD FOR THE HILLS ELSE WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE!", and any evidence that the latter is a bit extreme does not refute the former.

History tells us of the possibility of inquisitions.

Christian conservatives have been able to pressure a near unanimity of legislators to favor proclamations that identify atheists as anti-American.

One president has been able to say that Atheists are not patriotic and should not be citizens, and another president to say that no atheist is fit to be a judge virtually without notice.

Add to this a couple of generations of children growing up in a school that proclaims daily that atheists are evil.

Now, add some sort of major catastrophe.

I believe that the religious response to the events of Sept 11 were largely due to fear. That the bulk of the population actually believes that we have made God mad at us and if we do not correct this God will show his wrath again.

If there are no more shocks, then God is happy with us and we can go on our way. Fine. But if we experience one shock after another -- whether natural (plague, famine) or man-made (biowarfare, terrorism, ecological disaster), it is reasonable to expect that the attempts to appease God will grow more and more despirate.

Under these circumstances, the most despirate act of all -- throw out the non-believers (marginalized by the practices described in my opening post) becomes a possibility.

[ July 25, 2002: Message edited by: Alonzo Fyfe ]</p>

FreeToThink

You're damn right it's a possibility, albeit a remote one.

All the more reason to promote the virtues of freedom, freethought, and critical thinking.

As Sagan said, "Real Patriots Ask Questions".

Alonzo Fyfe

I also think it is important to recognize that the Pledge, 10 Commandments, and National Motto issues are the three most important areas of conflict right now, because these three policies more explicitly marginalize and denigrate atheists as anti-American, evil, outsiders.

Kevin Dorner

I think the point of this is that there doesn't have to ever be an official "inquisition." That would make the government look bad...

Rather than directly harassing unbelievers, instead, create an enviroment where they are stigmatized, marginalized, made to feel less than citizens, less than patriots... even less than human.

Then the "inquisition" will be accomplished by the unbelievers' fellow citizens.