Freethought & Rationalism Archive

luvluv · 06-07-2002, 05:08 PM

Lady Shea, I know some of them are emotionally healthy, but the fact you casually know a handful of pornstars does not give you the right to armchair analyze the entire industry, either.

I know WOMEN, ordinary, average, run of the mill women who have been hurt and who act out this hurt sexually. Folks, there are unhealthy expressions of sexuality. I'm sorry if this is news to anyone. And even if some in the industry are healthy, my personal guess would be that many of them are not. I don't think that is an unreasonable prediction.

Also, through the internet a huge window has opened up and now anyone with a videocamera can make lots of money from pornography. These aren't women paid thousands of dollars out in California. This is some runaway making a hundred dollars so they can eat for a few more days. You would be kidding yourself if you didn't realize there was not a lot of financial explotation involved in the act.

You guys are painting the absolutely happiest face you can on pornagraphy. You have to know there are some very ugly sides to it.

06-07-2002, 05:12 PM

So, then the most important question really is....

Can I get their phone numbers?

cricket · 06-07-2002, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Also, through the internet a huge window has opened up and now anyone with a videocamera can make lots of money from pornography. These aren't women paid thousands of dollars out in California. This is some runaway making a hundred dollars so they can eat for a few more days. You would be kidding yourself if you didn't realize there was not a lot of financial explotation involved in the act.

But no financial exploitation if they're hired to clean toilets.

?

[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: cricket ]</p>

MadMordigan · 06-07-2002, 05:20 PM

But no financial exploitation if they're hired to clean toilets.

Everyone knows healthy women prefer housework to gratuitous sex.

luvluv · 06-07-2002, 05:28 PM

This is somewhat off topic, but has anybody here ever read Giovanni's Room by James Baldwin? Baldwin was a complete atheist yet this book contains one of the best passages about sexuality that I have ever read. It was a scene involving the protagonist (an in-the-closet homosexual, whose name I forget) and a random women he picked up in a bar. He made a riveting portrayal of the moment after the physcial act was consumated, describing two human beings who had just used their bodies in a loveless and somewhat brutal act to escape their other problems and to act out their anger and aggression. He descirbed them as having a self-loathing, and a loathing of each other, as a result of having subjected used their bodies in such a fashion. This passage just occured to me because Baldwin was completely atheist but it was readily apparent that he believed that there were many expressions of sexuality that are out and out harmful to human beings. It is not just a position held by theists.

An honest observer of human sexuality would have to admit there are emotions tied to the act, and that the act can sometimes have harmful emotional consequences even when occuring between consenting adults. Sex is not just a matter of two bodies coming together it is a matter of two people coming together, both with different histories and different intentions, both attaching different meaning to the act and both trying to get different things from it. Sex does not occur in a vacuum. People bring their whole beings, physically and emotionally, into the act, and it can, like all other human interaction, be helpful or destructive depending on under what conditions it is performed.

tronvillain · 06-07-2002, 05:44 PM

luvluv:

Quote:

This is basically my point. Every girl in a porn film is SOMEBODY'S son or daughter. What is just a way to kill an afternoon for you is somebody's greatest pain.

While my point was that I care more about my friends than I do about strangers, so your question had no bearing on porn in general.

Quote:

And like somebody mentioned, a significant portion of the women in adult films are not healthy psychologically. I doubt you'd find very many practicing psychologists who would consider the decision to become a porn star to be a healthy expression of one's sexuality. Most would probably consider such a decision to be symptomatic of a pathology of some sort.

Well, then I would have to say that I don't care much for the opinion of most practicing psychologists. In fact, I'll say it right now: I don't care much for the opinion of most practicing psychologists.

Quote:

Do you think there is nothing wrong with viewing pornography even if the women in them were abused or anguished and are now acting out their pain?

Actually, I don't really think that there is anything wrong with viewing pornography even if the women in them were abust or anguished and are now acting out their pain. Of course, I'm not convinced that is the case.

Quote:

I know you all are going to come out of your hat with your "they just like sex" talk (I hate that argument: who doesn't like sex?) but I truly believe the notion that there is no emotional involvement in the act of sex is something that laypeople just assume and has no basis in clinical psychology. It's tough talk, and it sounds modern, but it's baloney. If sex is just a physical activity, no different than playing baseball or basketball, why not have sex with your children or your parents? Why would you care if your husband or wife had sex with other people? It's a meaningless activity, right?

First, I would not come out with "they just like sex." After all, I wouldn't say of sanitation workers, "they just like garbage." There could be a lot of reasons: sex, attention, fame, money, masochism, etc. Still, while sex is generally not a meaningless activity, that doesn't mean that it necessarily has to have deep meaning. If you offered me a few thousand dollars to have sex with a stranger, I would definitely consider it and wouldn't attach deep emotional significance to the act.

Quote:

I know we'd all like to believe that all of these women are just very healthy women who just "like sex" but many of them are extremely messed up mentally and instead of helping them we are subsidizing their self-destruction. I know this is not the case for all of them, but we would be fooling ourselves if we decided this isn't the case for many if not most of them. You guys have concluded that sex has no value, but the women in these films may not have, and they may be in pain and guilt over their actions. I suppose if other people's feelings have no value save for how they can benefit you, then this is a defensible position. Otherwise, I don't see how you can excuse it.

Why the hell are you singling out women? I guess it's okay for men to not attach deep significance to sex, but it's not okay for women. No, women are fragile and have to be protected - the men can look after themselves.

tronvillain · 06-07-2002, 05:48 PM

Whoever cricket quoted:

Quote:

Also, through the internet a huge window has opened up and now anyone with a videocamera can make lots of money from pornography. These aren't women paid thousands of dollars out in California. This is some runaway making a hundred dollars so they can eat for a few more days. You would be kidding yourself if you didn't realize there was not a lot of financial explotation involved in the act.

Right. Do you watch much porn? I watch a lot and very few of the women look like a "runaway making a hundred dollars so they can eat for a few more days."

Viti · 06-07-2002, 05:55 PM

Only the women are exploited, the men are studs ya know

.

luvluv, I don't try to paint a pretty picture of anything. Life is messy and most people are carrying around alot of emotional baggage. They "act it out" in many ways, cheating on their spouses, ignoring their families, abusing children, abusing drugs and alcohol, opening fire in a public place. Why is acting it out sexually somehow worse? I have been able to separate casual sex from making love, many sexually and emotionally healthy people are able to do this. I went out some nights when I was single with the express purpose of getting laid because I was horny.

luvluv · 06-07-2002, 05:59 PM

I have SEEN a lot, and I have seen a lot where the women are right off the streets. I've known prostitutes and former prostitutes personally, and you cannot always tell who they are by what they look like.

Sex means something different to women than it does to men. Again, this is not just a Christian opinion this is the opinion of trained psycholgists who have empirically studied human sexuality. You might not care what psychologists think but you must admit that what their research has borne out is probably accurate.

luvluv · 06-07-2002, 06:03 PM

"They "act it out" in many ways, cheating on their spouses, ignoring their families, abusing children, abusing drugs and alcohol, opening fire in a public place. Why is acting it out sexually somehow worse?"

No, it's not worse, it's in the same category. That's my whole point. People make it seem like because it is "natural" that it can't be destructive in the same way that alchohol and drugs or other things can be. Of course it can, and it often is.

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06-07-2002, 05:08 PM	#51
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	Lady Shea, I know some of them are emotionally healthy, but the fact you casually know a handful of pornstars does not give you the right to armchair analyze the entire industry, either. I know WOMEN, ordinary, average, run of the mill women who have been hurt and who act out this hurt sexually. Folks, there are unhealthy expressions of sexuality. I'm sorry if this is news to anyone. And even if some in the industry are healthy, my personal guess would be that many of them are not. I don't think that is an unreasonable prediction. Also, through the internet a huge window has opened up and now anyone with a videocamera can make lots of money from pornography. These aren't women paid thousands of dollars out in California. This is some runaway making a hundred dollars so they can eat for a few more days. You would be kidding yourself if you didn't realize there was not a lot of financial explotation involved in the act. You guys are painting the absolutely happiest face you can on pornagraphy. You have to know there are some very ugly sides to it.

06-07-2002, 05:12 PM	#52
himynameisPwn Guest Posts: n/a	So, then the most important question really is.... Can I get their phone numbers?

06-07-2002, 05:20 PM	#54
MadMordigan Beloved Deceased Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 2,704	But no financial exploitation if they're hired to clean toilets. Everyone knows healthy women prefer housework to gratuitous sex.

06-07-2002, 05:28 PM	#55
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	This is somewhat off topic, but has anybody here ever read Giovanni's Room by James Baldwin? Baldwin was a complete atheist yet this book contains one of the best passages about sexuality that I have ever read. It was a scene involving the protagonist (an in-the-closet homosexual, whose name I forget) and a random women he picked up in a bar. He made a riveting portrayal of the moment after the physcial act was consumated, describing two human beings who had just used their bodies in a loveless and somewhat brutal act to escape their other problems and to act out their anger and aggression. He descirbed them as having a self-loathing, and a loathing of each other, as a result of having subjected used their bodies in such a fashion. This passage just occured to me because Baldwin was completely atheist but it was readily apparent that he believed that there were many expressions of sexuality that are out and out harmful to human beings. It is not just a position held by theists. An honest observer of human sexuality would have to admit there are emotions tied to the act, and that the act can sometimes have harmful emotional consequences even when occuring between consenting adults. Sex is not just a matter of two bodies coming together it is a matter of two people coming together, both with different histories and different intentions, both attaching different meaning to the act and both trying to get different things from it. Sex does not occur in a vacuum. People bring their whole beings, physically and emotionally, into the act, and it can, like all other human interaction, be helpful or destructive depending on under what conditions it is performed.

06-07-2002, 05:55 PM	#58
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	Only the women are exploited, the men are studs ya know . luvluv, I don't try to paint a pretty picture of anything. Life is messy and most people are carrying around alot of emotional baggage. They "act it out" in many ways, cheating on their spouses, ignoring their families, abusing children, abusing drugs and alcohol, opening fire in a public place. Why is acting it out sexually somehow worse? I have been able to separate casual sex from making love, many sexually and emotionally healthy people are able to do this. I went out some nights when I was single with the express purpose of getting laid because I was horny.

06-07-2002, 05:59 PM	#59
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	I have SEEN a lot, and I have seen a lot where the women are right off the streets. I've known prostitutes and former prostitutes personally, and you cannot always tell who they are by what they look like. Sex means something different to women than it does to men. Again, this is not just a Christian opinion this is the opinion of trained psycholgists who have empirically studied human sexuality. You might not care what psychologists think but you must admit that what their research has borne out is probably accurate.

06-07-2002, 06:03 PM	#60
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	"They "act it out" in many ways, cheating on their spouses, ignoring their families, abusing children, abusing drugs and alcohol, opening fire in a public place. Why is acting it out sexually somehow worse?" No, it's not worse, it's in the same category. That's my whole point. People make it seem like because it is "natural" that it can't be destructive in the same way that alchohol and drugs or other things can be. Of course it can, and it often is.

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