JCS

I don't see how that would work. The god answers seem to fall into areas that are beyond our current ability to understand. (god of the gaps). If we can't demonstrate or provide evidence of a "god did it", how can we proceed with any "how god did it" or "why god did it" questions as that would be a case of the cart before the horse.

Things that were previously thought to be acts of gods were later shown to be natural events, is there any reason to doubt that this will continue to be the rule and not the exception?

Darkblade

Darth Dane

'God' is verifiably not evil...otherwise we would be suffering continually.

Darkblade: God is verifiably not good…otherwise we would be writhing with joy continually.

Sounds like yin/yang

'God' values mankind's freedom more than 'God' dislikes the bad things that man might possibly do with this freedom...otherwise we wouldn't have freedom.

Sounds good.

'God' (like you and me) is not concerned with being considered an objective fact to every person...otherwise God would be an objective fact to all.

Yes, again sounds good.

'God' values the intentions of a man's heart more than 'God' values the contents of a man's mind...otherwise salvation would be based upon one's knowledge.

Yes, this corresponds to teh yogi view that there is a special connection from the heart chakra to the crown chakra

'God' forms relationships with those who truly want to know Him...otherwise everybody, even atheists would know God.

Yes, sounds good.

Darkblade: God thinks it’s nice that he burns good atheists in hell forever.

God does? What else did God tell you?

Here's an interesting thing to note: The picture of God you get playing the 'What IF God Game'...is exactly the picture of God the Bible paints.

Darkblade: Only an extremely abridged bible.

We need only take one quote: "God works in mysterious ways."

Maybe?





DD - Love Spliff

JCS

Now I know you're just joking around. How about I use previous weather patterns to plan my trip during times that big storms are least likely to happen.

What you're suggesting to me is that god doesn't give me what I want, he adjusts random chance so that I can get for myself what I want. If it is good, god did it, if it is bad, it is due to free will or satan.

Or a possible way to include a deity that you hope exists.

Because my needs have been met.

Really? How about I provide myself with a greenhouse to avoid the weather issue, truck in the soil I require, and buy myself a fly swatter for those pesky bugs. It would seem that I am as capable as this deity that you pressume.

Darkblade

Hahaha...

(FYI, I did say *IF*)

Darth Dane

Now I know you're just joking around. How about I use previous weather patterns to plan my trip during times that big storms are least likely to happen.

Yes, we are tapping in to the system, we get more acces to how everything works. seems God is letting us in, slowly

What you're suggesting to me is that god doesn't give me what I want, he adjusts random chance so that I can get for myself what I want. If it is good, god did it, if it is bad, it is due to free will or satan.

No, all is due to the will of God. And I believe we humans can shape the will of God. But all humans are in disagreement how to express God's will, and thus do things on "their own"


Because my needs have been met.

If they have been met, you don't have them anymore. When you have eaten, you don't want more food to eat now. Your want has been mer


Really? How about I provide myself with a greenhouse to avoid the weather issue, truck in the soil I require, and buy myself a fly swatter for those pesky bugs. It would seem that I am as capable as this deity that you pressume.

Yes, it looks like we are getting more independant of God(if there is one)


But take the law of gravity, how come that Law works? Nevermind teh mechanics of gravity, why is it there? What made it possible for the law of gravity to work?
We can utilise the law of gravity, but why is it there?



DD - Love Spliff

Jamie_L

My observation still stands. If God were able, he could convince me to belief without forcing me to believe. Through his followers even, such that overt, direct intervention (which some say might influence my "free choice") is unnecessary. Given that such does not happen for me or any others that don't believe, I must conclude: God doesn't want us to believe. God doesn't care if we believe. Or God is unable to convince us to believe.

This is easy to answer. I am unable to eliminate all suffering. I can't stop a woman being raped in a back alley in Moscow. I can't save a young child from dying of S.A.R.S. in China. I can't stop earth quakes or floods or cancer or a host of other things. I'm not omnipotent. I God that was able and wanted to could stop suffering, through us or otherwise. Since there is suffering, one must assume that God is either not able or doesn't want to stop suffering.

Jamie

emotional

For what concerns the material plane, I agree materialistic explanations are indeed the best. But when you move into consideration of other planes, then you have to expand your theories outside of materialism. This should be no more trouble than quantum mechanics did for classical physics.

I'll give credit where naturalism has succeeded: it has succeeded, really immensely succeeded, in showing that the universe is subject to immutable natural law, and that there are no such things as miracles (violations of natural law). But it does not follow that the whole universe, the whole of natural law, is a self-contained structure. That is, it does not follow from naturalism that this whole universe, with its immutable laws, is not itself the product of a supernatural ("over-nature") setter of laws.

Science has affirmed the immutability of natural law. Science has not disproved the existence of God, souls or the afterlife.

JCS

Slowly? Considering the age of modern man compared to the age of the universe I think we are kicking the door down.

How many bald assertions can you present in one sentence?

Let's see, my pantry is stocked, my house is paid for, so my basic needs are covered for the foreseeable future. Now if I lived somewhere that required me to seek food constantly because I didn't know where my next meal would come from then that would be different.

Well you have it ass backwards. The law doesn't make gravity work, it explains how it works.

Jamie_L

This assumes either omnipotence or omnimalevolence. A god might want continuous suffering but be unable to deliver it. Or, a god might only want limited suffering.

An omnipotent God could achieve both freedom and less evil than we have now. An omnipotent, omniscient God could convince more people to be less evil through the power of persuasion alone. We cannot even deduce that God value's freedom at all.

I'm inclined to agree, but this assumes omnipotence. A limited god might simply be unable to make everyone believe.

This presupposes a particular religious view as truth. We cannot infer this from simply "observable universe + God".

Again, this presupposes things about God, and/or it assumes omnipotence. My more general statement stands: God either doesn't want universal belief, doesn't care about universal belief, or is unable to bring about universal belief.

Only if you presuppose the Bible as truth.

Jamie