Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Angrillori · 04-10-2003, 01:44 PM

I'm here thinking,

If there is a God, what CAN we deduce from this world?

Does the fact that it's given us no empirical evidence lead to any conclusions about its nature?
(To me this leads to the conclusion it is either powerless to provide such, or indifferent to our knowledge of its existence.)

The PoE certainly allows us to make some deductions (Not omnimax, for example.)

What else CAN we ascribe, if there is a God, with this universe around us.

And, in anticipation of future posts:
Please, nothing along the lines of: "Everything in the bible/q'ran/pali tripitaka/upanishads/etc." since these documents contradict each other, and as such don't allow us to come to any judgement of God. If you insist on postulating their divinity, then the valid conclusion we can make is that this God wants us to be confused, is willing to lie to us, and sows confusion via all these 'divinely inspired' works.

And, in anticipation of the "How do you know there's no evidence" posts, you can read the line: "there is no evidence" as: "this God, if extant, has not made empirical evidence available to me, or humanity on earth at this date" which still leads to the same conclusion: it is powerless to do so, or indifferent to our knowledge of its existance.

And, in anticipation of the post that the lack of evidence could mean this God chose to not give evidence: If he chose to withold ALL evidence, then that is evidence of indifference to our knowledge of its existance--without evidence, we'd only have whim and guesses to work with all of which would be highly unlikely to achieve any notion of God's true existance or nature.

So. That's all. What other conclusions about God's nature (assuming existance which itself is certainly NOT justified but for this post, please allow the assumption)can we draw from the state we are in?

[edited to finish last sentence]

Darth Dane · 04-10-2003, 02:07 PM

If....

What if we assumed God is not? What can we deduce?

Pretty much the same anyways. Since we don't have a conclsuive test, everything hinges on whether or not you believe in the concept of God.

This basic belief changes everything.

If you believe in God: "God work in mysterious ways"
If you don't believe in God: "everything just is, the universe just is. I don't know why, I am born, I live, I die"

Choose your belief

DD - Love Spliff

Jinto · 04-10-2003, 03:35 PM

If God exists, then He obviously doesn't give a damn about whether or not I believe in Him or not. And why should he, with 10^n cubic light-years of space to govern?

Angrillori · 04-10-2003, 04:08 PM

Sheesh, I guess I should have anticipated that too.

I thought it was implicit in my 'there is no evidence' line. This universe (or at least the part to date explored by us.) Is identical to one in which there is no God. So,

But, IF God, AND our universe, THEN what?

I think I gave two ideas...any more?

Theli · 04-10-2003, 04:35 PM

The difference is in the mind and only in the mind. You notice this while discussing with theists.
If god exists, things matter. If god does not exist, things doesn't matter.
"If god doesn't exist, morality doesn't matter"
"If god doesn't exist, our emotions doesn't matter"
"If god doesn't exist, my life doesn't matter"
It's purelly psychological, god is the embodyment of a person's convictions.
Wich explains why one person's god always share his opinions, but not necessarily another person's opinions.
Have you ever heard a theist disagreeing with his own god?
Ofcourse, they could disagree with something god done in the bible, but not with their personal god.
"God has a plan for me"
"God hates what I hate"
And so on...

Well, that's one answer. Might be trash.

Angrillori · 04-10-2003, 06:36 PM

True, that makes sense.

I guess another good question, or rephrase of the original, is,
"What can we deduce about a god that would make this universe and keep us in the state we are in?"

Does that make sense? Like I said, we can deduce that it can't be omnimax, and is either powerless to express itself, or indifferent to us. Any more?

Edited to add:

You know what, speaking of that meaning thing, I think it's a logical deduction, that IF this universe does have a 'god'
AND
We point out that the lack of evidence implies inability to produce such or indifference towards our knowledge of its existence, then furthermore, even IF a god, THEN all these moralities and such are no more deity-inspired than an atheistic morality. (Remember, god is unable to affect us, or indifferent to us.) Therefore, with or without a god, if this is the universe we're in, any of the: "X has meaning only because of god" arguments must fail.

yguy · 04-10-2003, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Theli
Have you ever heard a theist disagreeing with his own god?

You betcha.

At one point, God declared to Moses that He was going to wipe out the Israelites because they were such idiots, and make of Moses what He said He would make of Abraham. Moses answered that God had made the promise to Abraham, and that he shouldn't break the promise, wherefore God "changed His mind".

Jobar · 04-10-2003, 07:15 PM

yguy, when I was a boy and attended a Southern Baptist church, we sang the Doxology, part of which went

As it was in the beginning
Is now, and ever shall be

And you claim that God can change his mind. The all-knowing, all-powerful, and eternal God- changed his mind.

Because Moses reminded him- reminded Him- that He had made a promise.

Yeah. RIIIIGHT.

Darth, you say
If you believe in God: "God work in mysterious ways"
If you don't believe in God: "everything just is, the universe just is. I don't know why, I am born, I live, I die"

But both those are statements of ignorance, can't you see? The second at least has the virtue of being honest and forthright- and by admitting lack of knowledge, encourages us to search for answers. By saying 'Goddidit' you imply that no further answers are needed, or possible. To do that is to do injustice to the questing powers of our imagination and knowledge!

yguy · 04-10-2003, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar
And you claim that God can change his mind. The all-knowing, all-powerful, and eternal God- changed his mind.

I put it in quotes because that's what a superficial reading would indicate. More likely He was only testing Moses.

emotional · 04-11-2003, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar
By saying 'Goddidit' you imply that no further answers are needed, or possible.

How do you come to that conclusion? Have you been brainwashed by Biblical and Qur'anic propaganda that questions about God shouldn't be asked? Why is that if "God did it" then we stop asking questions? I disagree with you here.

"God did it" doesn't sound like a scientific hypothesis (especially since modern-day savants so like to equate science with naturalism). However, it may be true. Upon seeing a biscuit dissolving in a glass of water, you could hypothesise a natural theory by which the biscuit got there. You could also hypothesis a supernatural theory that some external agent (a person) put the biscuit in the glass. Neither explanation obstructs knowledge, and either could be true.

(And no, I don't believe in Intelligent Design, I believe in evolution. However, I think that behind evolution, behind the capacity of matter to combine and form wonderful shapes, is a supernatural life-force or soul or anima, which emanates from Anima Magna aka God)

04-10-2003, 01:44 PM	#1
Angrillori Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: A world less bright without WinAce. Posts: 7,482	If 'God' what can we deduce? I'm here thinking, If there is a God, what CAN we deduce from this world? Does the fact that it's given us no empirical evidence lead to any conclusions about its nature? (To me this leads to the conclusion it is either powerless to provide such, or indifferent to our knowledge of its existence.) The PoE certainly allows us to make some deductions (Not omnimax, for example.) What else CAN we ascribe, if there is a God, with this universe around us. And, in anticipation of future posts: Please, nothing along the lines of: "Everything in the bible/q'ran/pali tripitaka/upanishads/etc." since these documents contradict each other, and as such don't allow us to come to any judgement of God. If you insist on postulating their divinity, then the valid conclusion we can make is that this God wants us to be confused, is willing to lie to us, and sows confusion via all these 'divinely inspired' works. And, in anticipation of the "How do you know there's no evidence" posts, you can read the line: "there is no evidence" as: "this God, if extant, has not made empirical evidence available to me, or humanity on earth at this date" which still leads to the same conclusion: it is powerless to do so, or indifferent to our knowledge of its existance. And, in anticipation of the post that the lack of evidence could mean this God chose to not give evidence: If he chose to withold ALL evidence, then that is evidence of indifference to our knowledge of its existance--without evidence, we'd only have whim and guesses to work with all of which would be highly unlikely to achieve any notion of God's true existance or nature. So. That's all. What other conclusions about God's nature (assuming existance which itself is certainly NOT justified but for this post, please allow the assumption)can we draw from the state we are in? [edited to finish last sentence]

04-10-2003, 04:35 PM	#5
Theli Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,567	Angrillori The difference is in the mind and only in the mind. You notice this while discussing with theists. If god exists, things matter. If god does not exist, things doesn't matter. "If god doesn't exist, morality doesn't matter" "If god doesn't exist, our emotions doesn't matter" "If god doesn't exist, my life doesn't matter" It's purelly psychological, god is the embodyment of a person's convictions. Wich explains why one person's god always share his opinions, but not necessarily another person's opinions. Have you ever heard a theist disagreeing with his own god? Ofcourse, they could disagree with something god done in the bible, but not with their personal god. "God has a plan for me" "God hates what I hate" And so on... Well, that's one answer. Might be trash.

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04-10-2003, 02:07 PM	#2
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	If.... What if we assumed God is not? What can we deduce? Pretty much the same anyways. Since we don't have a conclsuive test, everything hinges on whether or not you believe in the concept of God. This basic belief changes everything. If you believe in God: "God work in mysterious ways" If you don't believe in God: "everything just is, the universe just is. I don't know why, I am born, I live, I die" Choose your belief DD - Love Spliff

04-10-2003, 03:35 PM	#3
Jinto Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SLC, UT Posts: 957	If God exists, then He obviously doesn't give a damn about whether or not I believe in Him or not. And why should he, with 10^n cubic light-years of space to govern?

04-10-2003, 04:08 PM	#4
Angrillori Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: A world less bright without WinAce. Posts: 7,482	Sheesh, I guess I should have anticipated that too. I thought it was implicit in my 'there is no evidence' line. This universe (or at least the part to date explored by us.) Is identical to one in which there is no God. So, But, IF God, AND our universe, THEN what? I think I gave two ideas...any more?

04-10-2003, 06:36 PM	#6
Angrillori Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: A world less bright without WinAce. Posts: 7,482	True, that makes sense. I guess another good question, or rephrase of the original, is, "What can we deduce about a god that would make this universe and keep us in the state we are in?" Does that make sense? Like I said, we can deduce that it can't be omnimax, and is either powerless to express itself, or indifferent to us. Any more? Edited to add: You know what, speaking of that meaning thing, I think it's a logical deduction, that IF this universe does have a 'god' AND We point out that the lack of evidence implies inability to produce such or indifference towards our knowledge of its existence, then furthermore, even IF a god, THEN all these moralities and such are no more deity-inspired than an atheistic morality. (Remember, god is unable to affect us, or indifferent to us.) Therefore, with or without a god, if this is the universe we're in, any of the: "X has meaning only because of god" arguments must fail.

04-10-2003, 07:15 PM	#8
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	yguy, when I was a boy and attended a Southern Baptist church, we sang the Doxology, part of which went As it was in the beginning Is now, and ever shall be And you claim that God can change his mind. The all-knowing, all-powerful, and eternal God- changed his mind. Because Moses reminded him- reminded Him- that He had made a promise. Yeah. RIIIIGHT. Darth, you say If you believe in God: "God work in mysterious ways" If you don't believe in God: "everything just is, the universe just is. I don't know why, I am born, I live, I die" But both those are statements of ignorance, can't you see? The second at least has the virtue of being honest and forthright- and by admitting lack of knowledge, encourages us to search for answers. By saying 'Goddidit' you imply that no further answers are needed, or possible. To do that is to do injustice to the questing powers of our imagination and knowledge!

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