Freethought & Rationalism Archive

contracycle · 07-16-2003, 06:53 AM

So, we;ve discussed chimp tool making and apparently have people who work professionally with chimps and other apes.

Do we have any cetacean experts? If so, what are you thoughts on propsective sapience in some cetaceans?

This is a topic that interests me, on the basis that I fear it will be harder to determine the yea or nay given the massive differences in environmental circumstance. Furthermore, given my IT background, I see sapience as a property of developed signals processing, and cetaceans process a truly immense quantity of signals. They therefore appear as prima facie good candidates to me.

So, anyone have any thoughts, anecdotes, page references, whatnot? I am resonably well read but also have not had the benefit of a biologist pointing me in the direction of sources, and any pointers would be gratefully recieved. All reposnses appreciated.

starling · 07-16-2003, 11:51 PM

Sentience is typically defined as self awareness, the ability to differentiate onesself from others. Most experiments I have seen though, try to test sentience through visual stimulus. Makes sense, as we're only human, but most animals out there do not use their vision as much, nor for the same reasons. For instance, if you replicated scents of various dogs, I'm sure the test dog would be quite able to recognize its own scent. As for dolphins, I think they have more success with 3D models their ultrasound can pick up. I did read somewhere an experiment where some dolphins actually used a mirror before to look at artificial markings applied to their body. Science News maybe? I forget.

Starling

contracycle · 07-17-2003, 02:39 AM

Yes, dolphins definately recognise themselves in mirrors and so forth, they clearly are able to recognise themselves seen objectively.

Theres also tyhe case that dolphins can recognise the ultrasounf pattern of an object they have only seen visually. Objects were presented top the dolphons out of the water, then concealed in one of two opaque balls, sometiems with a decoy object in the other ball, IIRC. The dolphions were asked to identify which ball held the object that they had seen visually, but had to use echolocation to do it. This implies they can project the echolocation signature of an object from its visual characteristics.

Thats the sort of thing I wonder about; there clearly is a capacity for at least the basis of abstracted thought.

Any other remarks from anyone?

Jesse · 07-17-2003, 09:13 AM

Here's a short but interesting article on trying to communicate with dolphins:

http://www.btinternet.com/~neuronaut...imalspeech.htm

Quote:

The training method was simple. The dolphins were taught to touch an object with their nose when they heard or saw its name being called. Each time they would be rewarded with a titbit of fish. After seven months of training, the dolphins had learnt 20 words, including a few commands. Herman then began to combine words into sentences to see if the dolphins would understand. The trainer would sign a sentence like: "Ake-hoop-fetch- gate", and the dolphin would have to grab a hoop from the many objects floating in the tank and carry it to a position between two posts.

Herman found that not only could the dolphins learn to follow commands up to five words long, but they were sensitive to word order. An impossible command, such as gate-fetch-hoop, would be ignored or prompt the dolphin to tap a "no" paddle, meaning the task could not be done. To show that the dolphins in some way understood what was being said, rather than responding blindly to a set signal as if doing a circus trick, Herman tested their reactions to novel and ambiguous sentences. In an experiment in which combinations of commands were tried for the first time, the dolphins reacted correctly in over 80 percent of the cases. This result was better than might be expected of a two year old human child.

Of more interest were some of the creative responses made by the dolphins when asked to do something puzzling. A running stream from a hose had been named "water" and Herman tried the apparently impossible command of "water-toss" on the dolphins. Both animals independently came to the same solution of swimming over to the jet and jerking their heads through it, sending a spray of water flying. Another time, Ake was asked to put a ball in a basket when the ball happened to be already in it. The dolphin went over, took the ball out, then dunked it straight back in again. "A lot of people try to minimise the thinking abilities of animals but these results show that dolphins are capable of some kind of mental representation. Words can have a real meaning for them," Herman argues.

In just the past few months came the most stunning example of the dolphins' creativity. Gradually, as training has progressed, Herman has introduced his dolphins to an ever more abstract and ambiguous vocabulary. Recently, the dolphins were taught symbols which stood for "create a behaviour" and "do this activity in tandem". In January, the two commands were combined for the first time to see how the dolphins would react. "The two trainers gave the signals and the dolphins joined up in the centre of the pool and swam around for a bit. Then simultaneously, both leapt out, spitting water as they leapt. It was if they had got together first to plan what they were going to do. We are not yet sure how to explain the way they co-ordinated their actions," Herman says.

Here's the webpage of Dr. Herman's lab:

http://www.dolphin-institute.org/our_research/index.htm

A lot of really interesting stuff there...for example, the pointing gestures section reveals that dolphins, unlike chimps, are able to understand what a human means when he or she points at an object, the vigilance section shows they're able to sustain attention on a task where a bunch of images are shown in succession and they have to react to the "correct" one, and the behavioral mimicry section shows that they're able to imitate the behaviors, not just of other dolphins, but of humans as well:

Quote:

For example, if the human performs a pirouette, the dolphin will do likewise, and if the human raises a leg in the air the dolphin will raise its tail. The dolphin thus relates its body image to the human's body plan, using analogies as necessary. For example, its uses its tail as an analogy to our leg. ... Dolphins are also excellent vocal mimics, as demonstrated by other work we've performed. Dolphins appear to be the only species, other than humans, capable of both reliable vocal and behavioral mimicry.

Mageth · 07-17-2003, 09:21 AM

"Wow, that woman is really good at mimicing me. Maybe humans are sentient."

Late_Cretaceous · 07-17-2003, 10:30 AM

From the Onion:
Dolphins Evolve Opposable Thumbs (Oh, Shit Says Humanity)
http://www.theonion.com/onion3630/do...ve_thumbs.html

ps418 · 07-17-2003, 10:52 AM

I remember a guy named John Lilly who studid dolphin communication. Well, maybe study isnt the right word. For instance, he would lay in a sensory deprivation tank while high on ketamine and listen to recordings of dolphin sounds. Wrote several books. Was a respected pharmacologist at one point, but his stuff about dolphins is straight crap. Apparently he discovered that dolphins are aliens or something like that. Oh, and they are connected somehow to the Earth Coincidence Control Office too, which controls and arranges all the seemingly coincidental events in our lives.

Patrick

RevDahlia · 07-17-2003, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ps418
I remember a guy named John Lilly who studid dolphin communication. Well, maybe study isnt the right word. For instance, he would lay in a sensory deprivation tank while high on ketamine and listen to recordings of dolphin sounds. Wrote several books. Was a respected pharmacologist at one point, but his stuff about dolphins is straight crap. Apparently he discovered that dolphins are aliens or something like that. Oh, and they are connected somehow to the Earth Coincidence Control Office too, which controls and arranges all the seemingly coincidental events in our lives.

Patrick

This sounds absolutely standard for a ket trip, actually. Dolphins and pyramids and crystals, oh my!

07-16-2003, 06:53 AM	#1
contracycle Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: London Posts: 1,425	cetacian sapience So, we;ve discussed chimp tool making and apparently have people who work professionally with chimps and other apes. Do we have any cetacean experts? If so, what are you thoughts on propsective sapience in some cetaceans? This is a topic that interests me, on the basis that I fear it will be harder to determine the yea or nay given the massive differences in environmental circumstance. Furthermore, given my IT background, I see sapience as a property of developed signals processing, and cetaceans process a truly immense quantity of signals. They therefore appear as prima facie good candidates to me. So, anyone have any thoughts, anecdotes, page references, whatnot? I am resonably well read but also have not had the benefit of a biologist pointing me in the direction of sources, and any pointers would be gratefully recieved. All reposnses appreciated.

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07-16-2003, 11:51 PM	#2
starling Veteran Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Central Valley of California Posts: 1,761	Sentience is typically defined as self awareness, the ability to differentiate onesself from others. Most experiments I have seen though, try to test sentience through visual stimulus. Makes sense, as we're only human, but most animals out there do not use their vision as much, nor for the same reasons. For instance, if you replicated scents of various dogs, I'm sure the test dog would be quite able to recognize its own scent. As for dolphins, I think they have more success with 3D models their ultrasound can pick up. I did read somewhere an experiment where some dolphins actually used a mirror before to look at artificial markings applied to their body. Science News maybe? I forget. Starling

07-17-2003, 02:39 AM	#3
contracycle Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: London Posts: 1,425	Yes, dolphins definately recognise themselves in mirrors and so forth, they clearly are able to recognise themselves seen objectively. Theres also tyhe case that dolphins can recognise the ultrasounf pattern of an object they have only seen visually. Objects were presented top the dolphons out of the water, then concealed in one of two opaque balls, sometiems with a decoy object in the other ball, IIRC. The dolphions were asked to identify which ball held the object that they had seen visually, but had to use echolocation to do it. This implies they can project the echolocation signature of an object from its visual characteristics. Thats the sort of thing I wonder about; there clearly is a capacity for at least the basis of abstracted thought. Any other remarks from anyone?

07-17-2003, 09:21 AM	#5
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	"Wow, that woman is really good at mimicing me. Maybe humans are sentient."

07-17-2003, 10:30 AM	#6
Late_Cretaceous Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Alberta Posts: 1,049	From the Onion: Dolphins Evolve Opposable Thumbs (Oh, Shit Says Humanity) http://www.theonion.com/onion3630/do...ve_thumbs.html

07-17-2003, 10:52 AM	#7
ps418 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Louisville, KY, USA Posts: 1,840	I remember a guy named John Lilly who studid dolphin communication. Well, maybe study isnt the right word. For instance, he would lay in a sensory deprivation tank while high on ketamine and listen to recordings of dolphin sounds. Wrote several books. Was a respected pharmacologist at one point, but his stuff about dolphins is straight crap. Apparently he discovered that dolphins are aliens or something like that. Oh, and they are connected somehow to the Earth Coincidence Control Office too, which controls and arranges all the seemingly coincidental events in our lives. Patrick

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