Freethought & Rationalism Archive

gus · 07-10-2002, 04:44 PM

Let me say I'm an athiest, yet to me Christmas is a completely secular holiday which I very much enjoy celebrating with family and friends. I've attended X-Mas Eve and X-Mas Day get-togethers every year for all of my 29 years, and not only do I hardly every associate X-Mas with Christianity, a hardly ever even hear a religious reference on those occasions (aside from the music, which I like for the most part).

However does the fact that Christmas is at its core a Christian holiday make it such that declaring it a national holiday endorses Christianity to the point where this is a real issue?

To be honest I've never given it a moment's thought until, in the midst of this Pledge business, someone asked me if I would complain about getting Christmas off if I were a government employee. I sure as hell would not, as X-Mas has always been an important holiday for me, for exclusively secular reasons. Then again it has to contribute in a some way to the unspoken (well, for some, actually spoken) appointment of Christianity as "America's religion", which I certainly do not accept.

I think this is very gray area, that I am having trouble sorting out. Do any of you other fellow athiests happily celebrate X-Mas as a secular holiday or do you view it's status as a national holiday as more of an example of unacceptable church-state entanglement?

edited: spelling and grammar

[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: gus ]</p>

Bokonon · 07-10-2002, 04:57 PM

I agree with you. It (and Easter) are secular holidays for me. Christmas especially has become a traditional holiday rather than a religious one. I know a few Jewish families, a Hindu family, a Hare Krishna couple, and a Buddhist individual who celebrate it. To remove the federal holiday statute would force federal employees to work that day. Based on the importance it now holds for most, that would be imprudent.

I also have no problem with public schools arranging their Winter and Spring breaks around Christmas and Easter. It's just logical to make the breaks during the weeks when most people will be visiting family.

One of the last sane · 07-10-2002, 05:00 PM

I don't regard Xmas as a Christian holiday, but as a pre-Christian holiday that was highjacked by the Christians because they could not eradicate it. There was a midwinter festival long before there was Christianity. Christians hate being told that, but its true.

I like getting together with family and friends around the winter solstice. Its a good time to socialize and celebrate friendship despite the cold.

Freethinking Ferret · 07-10-2002, 05:05 PM

Good call, last of the sane... I also celebrate xmas as a winter solstice/gathering of friends/totally secular holiday.

Easter, same deal, spring equinox. Another natural/pagan celebration co-opted by the church. Again, reason enough for me to enjoy a day off.

One of the last sane · 07-10-2002, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Easter, same deal, spring equinox. Another natural/pagan celebration co-opted by the church.

That's right. Want to really flummox a Xian? Ask them what the Biblical/Xian basis is for Easter always coinciding with the full moon. I love doing that...

Splat · 07-10-2002, 05:22 PM

I agree as well--they're all about santa claus, materialism, junk food, and painted eggs as far as I'm concerned.

I've noticed that our schools no longer call them "xmas-" and "easter break." But they no longer call halloween by its name either ("crazy day").

PJPSYCO · 07-10-2002, 08:43 PM

One,
It's on a full moon, because christian are all werewolves, duh. The consuption of human flesh, and drinking of blood should have elluded to them being some type of monster.

Autonemesis · 07-10-2002, 09:33 PM

A constitutional alternative for federal workers might be to replace the religious holidays with floating holidays. It's not like government shuts down on Christmas, and I'm sure people horsetrade shifts to arrange things at holiday time to their liking.

oriecat · 07-10-2002, 11:26 PM

I think the fact that Christmas has become almost completely secularized and that is the federal holiday, while Easter hasn't and it isn't, helps to show that America is not a "Christian nation". If it were truly, then there would be a federal holiday for Easter, as it is supposed to be the most important Christian holiday, but there isn't. At least not that I know of. Banks aren't closed the Monday afterwards or anything. (The fact that most Christians probably celebrate more on Christmas than Easter, also goes to show how little the actually know their own religion.

)

And I don't know if it wasn't done in my school district, or being non-religious, I just didn't notice, but I have never connected Spring Break with Easter. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Buffman · 07-11-2002, 12:26 AM

<a href="http://astro.nmsu.edu/~lhuber/leaphist.html" target="_blank">http://astro.nmsu.edu/~lhuber/leaphist.html</a>

(Extract)
Thus, Dionysius' Anno Domini 532 is equivalent to Anno Diocletian 248. In this way a correspondence was established between the new Christian Era and an existing system associated with historical records. What Dionysius did not do is establish an accurate date for the birth of Christ. Although scholars generally believe that Christ was born some years before A.D. 1, the historical evidence is too sketchy to allow a definitive dating.
(End extract)

07-10-2002, 04:44 PM	#1
gus Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 21	Christmas as a federal holiday...violation of church-state separation? Let me say I'm an athiest, yet to me Christmas is a completely secular holiday which I very much enjoy celebrating with family and friends. I've attended X-Mas Eve and X-Mas Day get-togethers every year for all of my 29 years, and not only do I hardly every associate X-Mas with Christianity, a hardly ever even hear a religious reference on those occasions (aside from the music, which I like for the most part). However does the fact that Christmas is at its core a Christian holiday make it such that declaring it a national holiday endorses Christianity to the point where this is a real issue? To be honest I've never given it a moment's thought until, in the midst of this Pledge business, someone asked me if I would complain about getting Christmas off if I were a government employee. I sure as hell would not, as X-Mas has always been an important holiday for me, for exclusively secular reasons. Then again it has to contribute in a some way to the unspoken (well, for some, actually spoken) appointment of Christianity as "America's religion", which I certainly do not accept. I think this is very gray area, that I am having trouble sorting out. Do any of you other fellow athiests happily celebrate X-Mas as a secular holiday or do you view it's status as a national holiday as more of an example of unacceptable church-state entanglement? edited: spelling and grammar [ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: gus ]</p>

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07-10-2002, 04:57 PM	#2
Bokonon Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Left of the Mississippi Posts: 138	I agree with you. It (and Easter) are secular holidays for me. Christmas especially has become a traditional holiday rather than a religious one. I know a few Jewish families, a Hindu family, a Hare Krishna couple, and a Buddhist individual who celebrate it. To remove the federal holiday statute would force federal employees to work that day. Based on the importance it now holds for most, that would be imprudent. I also have no problem with public schools arranging their Winter and Spring breaks around Christmas and Easter. It's just logical to make the breaks during the weeks when most people will be visiting family.

07-10-2002, 05:00 PM	#3
One of the last sane Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: hereabouts Posts: 734	I don't regard Xmas as a Christian holiday, but as a pre-Christian holiday that was highjacked by the Christians because they could not eradicate it. There was a midwinter festival long before there was Christianity. Christians hate being told that, but its true. I like getting together with family and friends around the winter solstice. Its a good time to socialize and celebrate friendship despite the cold.

07-10-2002, 05:05 PM	#4
Freethinking Ferret Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 703	Good call, last of the sane... I also celebrate xmas as a winter solstice/gathering of friends/totally secular holiday. Easter, same deal, spring equinox. Another natural/pagan celebration co-opted by the church. Again, reason enough for me to enjoy a day off.

07-10-2002, 05:22 PM	#6
Splat Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Hell, PA Posts: 599	I agree as well--they're all about santa claus, materialism, junk food, and painted eggs as far as I'm concerned. I've noticed that our schools no longer call them "xmas-" and "easter break." But they no longer call halloween by its name either ("crazy day").

07-10-2002, 08:43 PM	#7
PJPSYCO Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Rolla, Missouri Posts: 830	One, It's on a full moon, because christian are all werewolves, duh. The consuption of human flesh, and drinking of blood should have elluded to them being some type of monster.

07-10-2002, 09:33 PM	#8
Autonemesis Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: I've left FRDB for good, due to new WI&P policy Posts: 12,048	A constitutional alternative for federal workers might be to replace the religious holidays with floating holidays. It's not like government shuts down on Christmas, and I'm sure people horsetrade shifts to arrange things at holiday time to their liking.

07-10-2002, 11:26 PM	#9
oriecat Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Portland OR USA Posts: 1,098	I think the fact that Christmas has become almost completely secularized and that is the federal holiday, while Easter hasn't and it isn't, helps to show that America is not a "Christian nation". If it were truly, then there would be a federal holiday for Easter, as it is supposed to be the most important Christian holiday, but there isn't. At least not that I know of. Banks aren't closed the Monday afterwards or anything. (The fact that most Christians probably celebrate more on Christmas than Easter, also goes to show how little the actually know their own religion. ) And I don't know if it wasn't done in my school district, or being non-religious, I just didn't notice, but I have never connected Spring Break with Easter. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

07-11-2002, 12:26 AM	#10
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	<a href="http://astro.nmsu.edu/~lhuber/leaphist.html" target="_blank">http://astro.nmsu.edu/~lhuber/leaphist.html</a> (Extract) Thus, Dionysius' Anno Domini 532 is equivalent to Anno Diocletian 248. In this way a correspondence was established between the new Christian Era and an existing system associated with historical records. What Dionysius did not do is establish an accurate date for the birth of Christ. Although scholars generally believe that Christ was born some years before A.D. 1, the historical evidence is too sketchy to allow a definitive dating. (End extract)

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