Freethought & Rationalism Archive

NFLP · 08-10-2002, 07:15 PM

"Science offers proof without certainty. Creationists offer certainty without proof."
--Ashley Montague

MrKrinkles · 08-10-2002, 08:16 PM

I grew up living just about next door to Ashley Montague in Princeton, New Jersey. I shoveled his driveway once-whooah boy, my big brush with greatness! I never really knew what he did or what he was famous for, but after he died I saw his obituary in the New York Times and was amazed at his career. I wish I could have met him as an adult.

Brooks

abe smith · 08-12-2002, 04:51 AM

um....I always get nervous when anyone PERSON-ifies "Science" as some sort of Platonic self-standing entity. There ISN'T any sech a thang as "SCIENCE", dammitall; there"re singular, flesh-&-blood human individuals who publish thoughts of theirs; some such thoughts may or may not be verifiable; but let"s not turn "SCIENCE" into some sort of new-age replacement for "God" if you don't mind. Abe

Sabine Grant · 08-12-2002, 01:49 PM

Creation being the fruit of faith, it would be unreasonable to expect some concrete evidence. The beauty of faith resides in the fact that science cannot alterate its ability to remain authentic in the heart of a believer. If we believe in evolution, it must include the entire universe. Everything is wonderfuly balanced thru a mixture of perfection and complexity all around us.Ye we have displayed the unfortunate talent to damage that perfection... how could the product of evolution not seek to refine and perpetuate the same intent to evolve towards perfection ? have we ceized to evolve ? when did evolution stop? when did we deviate from the general intent of evolution to maintain that extraordinary balance. If we are degenarating, then evolution is senseless and a failure. From a philosophical point of view, creation offers more certainty that we can still seek perfection.

ishalon · 08-12-2002, 02:01 PM

Welcome!

Read a bit more about evolution and how it works before you assume what people have told you is true

Evolution is "change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species." It includes the origin of species and the complexity of life on earth, not the origin of the universe.

Evolution occurs over millions of years, humans have existed about 100,000 years. There is no evidence that we have ceased to evolve, although natural selection for us is a little different.

What is perfection?

What makes you think evolution aims at it and anything destructive is contradictory to evolution? There are several massive extinctions in the fossil record, so is whatever caused that un-evolutionary?

Why should we be degenerating? We are destroying our environment, but that isn't the degeneration of our species. Evolution is a theory, not a deity.

From a philosophical point of view, considering everything else, creation doesn't even offer.

Sabine Grant · 08-12-2002, 02:06 PM

Thank you for the welcome

Sabine Grant · 08-12-2002, 02:19 PM

now to go back to our topic.... would we survive without the universe ? who says that the universe is not sustaining our environment and therefore the species which would have evolved on our planet..... or was it just there ? maybe it was created ? another mistery science cannot quite explain. Try modifying of a couple of degrees the oscillation of the earth.....move the sun a couple thousands miles closer...it is all related. Our existence depends on the actual balance of the universe. A comet comes too close and we are exterminated.....All that engineering... where did it come from. Perfection is revealed to us by the knowledge on a daily basis that our very existence depends on the equilibrium around us. I cannot quite attribute that equilibrium to an " accident"....perfect is the word to qualify what promotes life, existence, breathing, functionning as organisms which otherwise would be reduced to simply nothing. Can evolution engender perfection is my question ?

Albion · 08-12-2002, 02:22 PM

Quote:

A comet comes too close and we are exterminated

Yes, I think the dinosaurs knew all about that.

KeithHarwood · 08-12-2002, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sabine Grant:
<strong>Can evolution engender perfection is my question ?</strong>

No it can't, and it is unreasonable to expect it to do so, in spite of what the purveyors of genetic algorithms tell us.

The driving force of evolution is survival, not perfection. And that is survival by choosing all available strategies. If that means that one of those strategies looks like a retreat away from perfection, tough. It looks like a damn good idea to the organism whose alternative is extinction.

Coragyps · 08-12-2002, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Try modifying of a couple of degrees the oscillation of the earth.....move the sun a couple thousands miles closer...it is all related.

Too late. The inclination of the Earth's axis already varies slowly, and we're 3,000,000 miles closer to the sun each January than we are in July. Watch out, Sabine, there be dragons here...

But welcome!

[ August 12, 2002: Message edited by: Coragyps ]</p>

08-10-2002, 07:15 PM	#1
NFLP Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Southeast Posts: 150	Science offers proof... "Science offers proof without certainty. Creationists offer certainty without proof." --Ashley Montague

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08-10-2002, 08:16 PM	#2
MrKrinkles Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: NW USA Posts: 93	I grew up living just about next door to Ashley Montague in Princeton, New Jersey. I shoveled his driveway once-whooah boy, my big brush with greatness! I never really knew what he did or what he was famous for, but after he died I saw his obituary in the New York Times and was amazed at his career. I wish I could have met him as an adult. Brooks

08-12-2002, 04:51 AM	#3
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	um....I always get nervous when anyone PERSON-ifies "Science" as some sort of Platonic self-standing entity. There ISN'T any sech a thang as "SCIENCE", dammitall; there"re singular, flesh-&-blood human individuals who publish thoughts of theirs; some such thoughts may or may not be verifiable; but let"s not turn "SCIENCE" into some sort of new-age replacement for "God" if you don't mind. Abe

08-12-2002, 01:49 PM	#4
Sabine Grant Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 32,364	Creation being the fruit of faith, it would be unreasonable to expect some concrete evidence. The beauty of faith resides in the fact that science cannot alterate its ability to remain authentic in the heart of a believer. If we believe in evolution, it must include the entire universe. Everything is wonderfuly balanced thru a mixture of perfection and complexity all around us.Ye we have displayed the unfortunate talent to damage that perfection... how could the product of evolution not seek to refine and perpetuate the same intent to evolve towards perfection ? have we ceized to evolve ? when did evolution stop? when did we deviate from the general intent of evolution to maintain that extraordinary balance. If we are degenarating, then evolution is senseless and a failure. From a philosophical point of view, creation offers more certainty that we can still seek perfection.

08-12-2002, 02:01 PM	#5
ishalon Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: From: Posts: 203	Welcome! Read a bit more about evolution and how it works before you assume what people have told you is true Evolution is "change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species." It includes the origin of species and the complexity of life on earth, not the origin of the universe. Evolution occurs over millions of years, humans have existed about 100,000 years. There is no evidence that we have ceased to evolve, although natural selection for us is a little different. What is perfection? What makes you think evolution aims at it and anything destructive is contradictory to evolution? There are several massive extinctions in the fossil record, so is whatever caused that un-evolutionary? Why should we be degenerating? We are destroying our environment, but that isn't the degeneration of our species. Evolution is a theory, not a deity. From a philosophical point of view, considering everything else, creation doesn't even offer.

08-12-2002, 02:06 PM	#6
Sabine Grant Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 32,364	Thank you for the welcome

08-12-2002, 02:19 PM	#7
Sabine Grant Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 32,364	now to go back to our topic.... would we survive without the universe ? who says that the universe is not sustaining our environment and therefore the species which would have evolved on our planet..... or was it just there ? maybe it was created ? another mistery science cannot quite explain. Try modifying of a couple of degrees the oscillation of the earth.....move the sun a couple thousands miles closer...it is all related. Our existence depends on the actual balance of the universe. A comet comes too close and we are exterminated.....All that engineering... where did it come from. Perfection is revealed to us by the knowledge on a daily basis that our very existence depends on the equilibrium around us. I cannot quite attribute that equilibrium to an " accident"....perfect is the word to qualify what promotes life, existence, breathing, functionning as organisms which otherwise would be reduced to simply nothing. Can evolution engender perfection is my question ?

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