Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RJS · 10-01-2002, 09:24 PM

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1 a) Must our existence have meaning?

It is hard for me to imagine our existence not having meaning (either known or unknown to us), so "yes". If by "must" you are implying 100.00000% certain, without any question, etc, then I guess I might want to rethink the phrasing.

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1 b) [optional] What does it mean to say that our existence has meaning?

Either known or unknown, meaning is the reason for existence. Meaning would be the answer to the question "Why does the universe, including myself, exist?" To me (and most) this leads to belief that a) there has to "be more", b) there has to be a cause/creator(however defined), c) there has to be something that caused the Big Bang, etc etc etc. Such answers could range from "to love and glorify God the Creator" to "we are living in the Matrix"....But it wouldn't include the chance that this is all some ramdom event out of the nothingness of nothingness (ie. no meaning).

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2 a) Is our existence meaningless if God does not exist?

If God is defined as the "more" (creator, cause, Matrix, etc) above, then yes, it would seem that life would be meaningless if it randomly resulted out of the nothingness of nothingness.

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2 b) Is our existence meaningless if God DOES exist?

Sounds like the way I am now defining God is not what you were intending by this question - as I sense it going down the omnipotent, etc path. But noting my answer to 2 a, I would say no, our life is not meaningless if God exists.

3) I think the way I defined things only made two different answers possible. But its late, and I'm tired.

10-01-2002, 09:26 PM

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Originally posted by Jobar:

(You know, there is a well known Zen koan, about the student who asked the Master for the meaning of life- and was chased through the woods being beaten on by the Master's staff.)

In other words, take care of yourself.

We say: Love the lord your God with all your heart soul and mind. Who is the lord your God? Your own self that the Master was trying to beat on.

Scrambles · 10-01-2002, 11:48 PM

RJS,

Right, I think what this boils down to what we mean when we say that life has "meaning". This should be something we should strive to come to a common understanding on. Also, if the thread takes this direction, then perhaps it should be moved to philosophical discussions.

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Either known or unknown, meaning is the reason for existence. Meaning would be the answer to the question "Why does the universe, including myself, exist?" To me (and most) this leads to belief that a) there has to "be more", b) there has to be a cause/creator(however defined), c) there has to be something that caused the Big Bang, etc etc etc. Such answers could range from "to love and glorify God the Creator" to "we are living in the Matrix"....But it wouldn't include the chance that this is all some ramdom event out of the nothingness of nothingness (ie. no meaning).

It seems to me you are interchanging purpose and meaning. If the purpose of our existence (assigned by God) is to love and glorify him, this still gets us no further to finding the meaning of existence.

What is the meaning of God's existence? And whence does this meaning come from. Surely if we need "something more" to give our existence meaning then also God must need "something more" as well. On the other hand, if God creates his own meaning then why can't we create our own meaning?

Scrambles

Answerer · 10-02-2002, 04:27 AM

Theists' point of view: 'We live for God, Jesus and my sins!'

Atheists' point of view:' We don't live for nothing(unlike some), rather we strive for rewards and success in lives.'

RJS · 10-02-2002, 05:43 AM

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It seems to me you are interchanging purpose and meaning. If the purpose of our existence (assigned by God) is to love and glorify him, this still gets us no further to finding the meaning of existence.

This is quite possibly true. This is something I would like to elaborate on later today. My guess is it will result in the conclusion that meaning of life exists but is unknowable, while the purpose has to do with love.

K · 10-02-2002, 06:14 AM

RJS:

What could possibly be more meaningless than to server an omnipotent God? If He is omnipotent, He has absolutely no need to be served. That would seem to have as much meaning as counting nothing.

You've said that life must have meaning because it feels obvious to you that it does. Throughout the years there have been many who felt it was obvious that the earth was flat, that the earth was the center of the universe, that disease was caused by demons, that time is absolute, that every event has a cause, etc. So, the intuitiveness of an idea isn't a measure of its validity.

Further, I would reject the unknown reason you proposed. There may or may not be an unknown CAUSE, but I think it would be completely nonsensical to assume an unknown REASON for our existence. Reason implies intent and there has been no evidence for any intent behind our existence.

Philosoft · 10-02-2002, 08:18 AM

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Originally posted by RJS:


Once one comes to the belief that an eternal God exists and provides all meaning for existence - then I assume you can see how such person would be of the general opinion that those who didn't hold such belief would lack similar meaning in their life. So the "reason" that a theist believes that an athiest would be without meaning in life is fairly obvious, especially when you look at what such theist believes.

The question "What is the meaning of life?" seems fundamentally incomplete. Meaning has no objectivity, unless you are attempting to predefine "meaning" and claim that definition as objective. If you are asking, "What does life mean to you?" the atheist is as justified in saying, "To have the opportunity to own the world's largest trailer park" as the theist's, "To serve and glorify God." You are asking someone's opinion, nothing more.

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Asking the "reason" that a theist believes in the first place is a different question. But as I mentioned, I have tried to figure out how an atheist approaches the First Cause (why does all of this stuff exist), and I am frustrated with the two standard responses of 1) Occam's Razor says you don't need to go back that far,

This is a curious response. I'm not sure why anyone would call the question, "Why does the universe exist?" an unnecessary entity.

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and/or 2) it is a question without meaning for any one of many different reasons (including one that related to 10 to the -47th of a second of time). Both of those seem like attempts to avoid what is behind the dark curtain.

The problem is, it's not clear that there is any "dark curtain." Your chain of reasoning - I feel my life is cosmically meaningful therefore there is something else besides existence itself that gives my life meaning - is ludicrous.

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It would seem more logical (to me) for the answer from an atheist to be "I don't know, but it all must have happened for a reason, but I don't think it had to do with a God."

I suppose if the atheist presumes "The universe exists for some external 'reason'" as axiomatic, but why should the atheist do that?

Scrambles · 10-02-2002, 10:40 AM

Hmmm, I think "significance of existence" may be a better word to describe what we are talking about than "meaning of existence". Agreed?

Scrambles

GPLindsey · 10-02-2002, 05:47 PM

I'd like to add a couple of thoughts on this. First, I think that the theory of relativity applies to "meaning" in an odd sense, in that meaning requires both a subject and an object relating to each other. I might say my life has meaning to me, but everything I would use to explain my point would involve making references to an external universe--my wife, my kids, walks on the beach, etc. My life, if it involved just floating in an empty black void, would not have meaning. Conversely, if I said my life had no meaning, I would be contradicted by my wife and kids (I hope!) because my life has meaning for them.

Does this mean that a God is needed for the universe to have meaning, because otherwise the universe is an "object" with nothing else to relate to, and thus meaningless? If so, then you would likewise have to believe that God is meaningless without the universe. In fact, try to describe God without using any terms that relate to the physical universe--I don't think it can be done.

Life has meaning because of the interelation of those of us in the universe. The universe itself, however, has no meaning to anything external to it.

RJS · 10-02-2002, 06:15 PM

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The universe itself, however, has no meaning to anything external to it.

What is external to the universe, in your opinion?

If you think nothing, how can you be sure?

If you cant be sure, how can you make the above statement?

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10-02-2002, 04:27 AM	#24
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	Theists' point of view: 'We live for God, Jesus and my sins!' Atheists' point of view:' We don't live for nothing(unlike some), rather we strive for rewards and success in lives.'

10-02-2002, 06:14 AM	#26
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	RJS: What could possibly be more meaningless than to server an omnipotent God? If He is omnipotent, He has absolutely no need to be served. That would seem to have as much meaning as counting nothing. You've said that life must have meaning because it feels obvious to you that it does. Throughout the years there have been many who felt it was obvious that the earth was flat, that the earth was the center of the universe, that disease was caused by demons, that time is absolute, that every event has a cause, etc. So, the intuitiveness of an idea isn't a measure of its validity. Further, I would reject the unknown reason you proposed. There may or may not be an unknown CAUSE, but I think it would be completely nonsensical to assume an unknown REASON for our existence. Reason implies intent and there has been no evidence for any intent behind our existence.

10-02-2002, 10:40 AM	#28
Scrambles Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Chch, NZ Posts: 234	Hmmm, I think "significance of existence" may be a better word to describe what we are talking about than "meaning of existence". Agreed? Scrambles

10-02-2002, 05:47 PM	#29
GPLindsey Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 221	I'd like to add a couple of thoughts on this. First, I think that the theory of relativity applies to "meaning" in an odd sense, in that meaning requires both a subject and an object relating to each other. I might say my life has meaning to me, but everything I would use to explain my point would involve making references to an external universe--my wife, my kids, walks on the beach, etc. My life, if it involved just floating in an empty black void, would not have meaning. Conversely, if I said my life had no meaning, I would be contradicted by my wife and kids (I hope!) because my life has meaning for them. Does this mean that a God is needed for the universe to have meaning, because otherwise the universe is an "object" with nothing else to relate to, and thus meaningless? If so, then you would likewise have to believe that God is meaningless without the universe. In fact, try to describe God without using any terms that relate to the physical universe--I don't think it can be done. Life has meaning because of the interelation of those of us in the universe. The universe itself, however, has no meaning to anything external to it.

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