Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RufusAtticus · 11-10-2002, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by atheist_in_foxhole:
The only reason why slavery survived after 1787 was because of the southern delegates who wouldn't permit it to be abolished.

And the more numerious northern delegates tried so hard to remove it. . . .

Quote:

And the only reason why slavery thrived in the ensuing years was because southern legislators and southern Supreme Court justices (who dominated the Court) made sure that it did.

Yes, how dare those judges uphold the constitution! How evil of them! Remember, it wasn't the court that changed, it was the constitution.

You seem to be loathed to admit that your US heritage includes a major Southern component.

Quote:

Sorry for offending ya'll, but I just hate your part of the country.

Point 1: It's "y'all," not "ya'll" or did your fancy northern schoolin' not teach you that?

Point 2: Have you ever even been to the south? It is plainly obvious from your comments that you know as much about the south as the average fundy knows about atheists. It's amazing how any freethinker can be so biased.

Quote:

It's like a boil that should have been lanced long ago.

With an attitude like that, it's no wonder why southerners don't trust outsiders. The only boil here that needs to be lanced is the one containing your ignorant prejudices.

I don't even know why I am posting here anymore. I have cousins to fuck, bibles to thump, slaves to whip, and teachers to jail.

~~Rebel Rufus~~

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: RufusAtticus ]

RufusAtticus · 11-10-2002, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Of course, when you get outside of the major metropolitan areas, you will see that racism is alive and well in the South... but... waitaminute -- it's just like that here in Southern California.

Not quite. The main difference between the south and the rest of the country is that here minorities live outside of big areas. Thus you don't have such a strong dichotemy as you do in say, New York state.

<a href="http://www.census.gov/population/www/cen2000/atlas.html" target="_blank">Very enlightening census data</a>

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: RufusAtticus ]

wildernesse · 11-10-2002, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by atheist_in_foxhole:
Sorry for offending ya'll, but I just hate your part of the country. It's like a boil that should have been lanced long ago.

Why? You haven't yet told me why blacks don't riot in the South. Why is it?

Have you ever spent any length of time in the South?

You hate our part of the country, apparently for the impression of racism that permeates our society. Do you likewise hate South Africa and France?

Your profile says you are from Washington. What do you think about this?

Quote:

The following figures from 1989-1990 attest to the effects of persistent racial inequities. In Seattle, 30% of whites and Asian Americans had college degrees, but only 11.5% of blacks did. Fifteen percent of Seattle's blacks possessed only an elementary-school education. Blacks accounted for 22.5% of the 53,000 Seattleites living below the poverty line, even though they amounted to less than 10% of the city's population; by contrast, only 9.1% of whites fell below the poverty line. Blacks made up 7.9% of Seattle's adult population but 14.5% of its unemployed. And across the state, black inmates accounted for 20.6% of the prison population but only 3% of Washington residents. These figures do not deny the existence of a sizeable and growing black "middle class," but they do suggest that for all its "opportunities" the Pacific Northwest has not come close to "solving" on a regional level the racial inequities that have characterized the 20th-century United States.

From <a href="http://www.washington.edu/uwired/outreach/cspn/hstaa432/lesson_21/hstaa432_21.html" target="_blank">www.washington.edu</a>. Is Washington state a bastion of equality and perfect harmony totally different from the rest of the U.S., or does it suffer from the same problems as the rest of country--including the South.

This is a link to a list <a href="http://academic.evergreen.edu/p/pfeiferm/Washingtonstate.html" target="_blank"> lynchings</a> in Washington state. Hmmm. Seems as if race problems aren't and haven't been confined to the South.

And what about Asian Americans in the West?

Quote:

1886
Residents of Tacoma, Seattle, and many places in the American West forcibly expel the Chinese.

1928
Filipino farm workers are driven out of Yakima Valley, Washington.

1941
After declaring war on Japan, 2000 Japanese community leaders along Pacific Coast states and Hawaii are rounded up and interned in Department of Justice camps.

From<a href="http://web.mit.edu/21h.153j/www/chrono.html" target="_blank"> here</a>

Quote:

1930
JACL & ANTI FILIPINO RIOTS
Anti-Filipino riot occurred in Watsonville, California and in Kent Washington.

1937
WASHINGTON STATE ATTEMPTS TO ELIMINATE INTERRACIAL MARRIAGES
Washington state legislature attempts to pass an anti-miscegenation law prohibiting "... any person of the Caucasian or white race to intermarry with any person of the Ethiopian or black race, the Malayan or brown race, or Mongolian or yellow race."

From <a href="http://us_asians.tripod.com/timeline-1930.html" target="_blank">here</a>

--tibac

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: wildernesse ]

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: wildernesse ]

GH · 11-10-2002, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by atheist_in_foxhole:
Sorry for offending ya'll, but I just hate your part of the country. It's like a boil that should have been lanced long ago.

Well, if that's your opinion then you can have it. There's really nothing else I can say since your mind is made up.

Puck · 11-10-2002, 05:28 PM

I wrote this yesterday morning, and wasn't sure to share it or not. When one talks about slavery, it can be very emotional issue, and when emotions get involved, we misunderstand each other easily. I didn't want to get involved in a flame war over something that can't be undone anyway. None the less, after reading todays posts, I think I'll share what I wrote.

"What good things are attached to the Confederate flag?"

Wow, it would take a long time to teach the history behind Southern attitudes today. (I'll attempt a small run down.) Some of those attitudes are correct, some Southerners have very incorrect attitudes as do alot of Northerners. Asshole-ness is not indemic to the South exclussivly.

The South did not invent slavery, but it became very successful here, it was an integral part of the Southern economy. There was also slavery in the northern parts of our country for quite awhile, but agriculture wasn't the basis for the Northern economy and it was much easier for Northerners to abandon slavery. Just as today we depend on some things that we know are bad for us (fume spewing tractor trailers to get our goods to market?), we can't just stop using them *today* or our economy would crumble. If we wish to abandon something that isn't right, we must *transition* into the change.

Many Southern slave owners were well aware that slavery was immoral and changes must be made. Slavery had already been abolished in England and the North, and the South was next. The Big Problem was that the North wanted it done *right now*. Alas, they didn't want to see (or perhaps they did see?) that 'it was the economy, stupid'.

The white Southerners knew you couldn't take almost half of the population, who were uneducated (for the most part), and just turn them lose with no way to become functioning citizens. The North pushed, the South pushed back at the North. The slaves were desperate for their freedom, some tried to push, and before we knew it, things had gone quite horrible.

What would things be like if the North hadn't of pushed for an immediate ban on slavery in the South? If the slaves had been taught to read and write, operate their own businesses, etc.? After all, the slaves were us, half of the people living in the South. In alot of cases, they were not only childhood best friends, but brothers and sisters. Some families spent generations together working side by side. Yes, there were terrible, horrible things that went on, I will be the first to say it. I'm a genealogist, I've read alot of old wills and inventories of the deceased from the time, and (cold chills) bills of sale for human beings. There are African-American families today with the same last name I was born with for a reason. Unknown to the church members, there is a black man buried next to my Great Great Grandfather; it was the former slave's dying request to be buried next to 'marse Ben'...the request was respected, for whatever the reason. Someday they are in for a shock when I give that man a proper headstone, hehehe.

I'm sure it is as hard for someone up-north to understand us Southerners as it is for us to understand them all the time. But our history is part of what makes us who we are. We go slower, talk 'different'. We have a strange mixture of pride and shame about our history, since shame won't change things, we focus on the pride. There are still lingering predjudcies, seen on TV in the form of the Confederate Flag wavers angry at Georgia's new State Flag. In the small community I live in, I still see older African-Americans doing what I call the Shuffle. I'm sure they don't even realize they do it. We aren't perfect, but I wouldn't be happy anywhere else. I know how to function here, we walk over to a person we wish to say hi to, instead of yelling hey vinnie at the top of our lungs. We hug in public, even if we've only met the person once. Uncle Bob dies? Everyone who knows his family will fill the house with food, really good food, and it doesn't matter if Uncle Bob was the biggest asshole in the county, his family members won't be alone at the graveside. The old women still wear furs at social functions, and even the anti-fur locals would protect them from abuse. We love gossip, men and women alike. Our food is different. We don't swear in pubilc out of respect for those who don't wish to hear it. We are passionate about the things we believe, albiet sometimes we are wrong, LOL!

Yes, we have alot of ignorance here. So do Northerners, but ours are funnier. Hey Bubba?! Watch me do this. There are still *huge* racial problems here in the South. I don't see them getting any better as long as no one wants to do the history and the heart to heart talking we need to do. Our 'Former Unpleasantness' still impacts us today, and for the most part, the whole country is ignorant as to why.

"What good things are attached to the Confederate flag? Isn't it just a code symbol for southern resistance to integration? "

Many idiots have made the Flag a code symbol for southern resistance to integration, yes. Starting in the 50's it was used to the shame of the men who fought under it, as a banner for Jim Crow. Those men and the Yankees shook hands after the end of the war. Years later they marched side by side on anniverseries. Please try to understand that just because the Confederate Flag was despoiled in the name of Jim Crow, for may of us it is not a banner of Jim Crow, but a flag we honor as we honor our ancestors.

There was alot of history leading up to that War, and alot that followed. If you haven't taken the time to look at it from both (all?) sides, then it becomes an emotional issue. Slavery was and is wrong. The past is past. There is still slavery today, if you have a problem with the past, perhaps you ought to work on the present problems?

Puck · 11-10-2002, 05:35 PM

Point 1: It's "y'all," not "ya'll" or did your fancy northern schoolin' not teach you that?

Hey, I use ya'll all the time, and I ain't got no fancy northern schoolin'. So, ya'll just hush up Rufus for I carry Bubba in on this here spat! LOL!

frostymama · 11-11-2002, 05:59 PM

I've lived in the South since I was 8 years old (born in Indiana). My family traces its roots back 2 centuries on nearly every line to the South. I grew up with southern and mountain culture.

I would have to estimate that at least 90% of the people I have known here have been backwards racist pricks. I have NEVER met any person (other than Civil war reenactors) that displayed the Confederate flag that wasn't a vocal racist as well. You may be able to argue that the flag doesn't represent racism, but that is what it has meant to every person I have met who had an opinion on the issue (whether they were for or against it.)

Uzzah · 11-11-2002, 06:46 PM

I'm from Chattanooga, two hours north of Atlanta..and I'll second FrostyMomma's point. While the Confederate flag might not signify racism, the people who raise it up this day and age do.

Uzzah

randomsyllable · 11-11-2002, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Koiyotnik:


Dude, we have too much room up here! Even along the Canada-US border, where 90% of our population is located, we have too much room.

No such thing as too much room ;p

on the subject of the Confedreate flag, <a href="http://scalzi.com/w021028.htm" target="_blank">this guy</a> does a fairly good job of summing up my views on the matter.

RufusAtticus · 11-11-2002, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by randomsyllable:
on the subject of the Confedreate flag, <a href="http://scalzi.com/w021028.htm" target="_blank">this guy</a> does a fairly good job of summing up my views on the matter.

What a load of horseshit! Calling the CSA evil has about as much basis as calling Atheists evil. You just got to love that much tunnel vision. The Civil War was a war of states' rights versus strong federal government, no matter what Scalzi wishes to think occurs. Slavery was one such state right and the major issue of the day. However, the American Civil War was an example of one of many wars fought in the west over the progression of power from landed, farming aristocarcy to urban, industralized merchant classes. In England it boiled over into social conflict; in the US it was a regional conflict. Only a very poor and revisionist student of history would label any conflict as "good" versus "evil."

Some other comments on that "editorial."
<ol type="1">[*]The US constitution codifies slavery too. It's known as the "3/5ths" clause.[*]Confederate solders were Americans. Do you know of any other nation that would name ships and bases after rebels?[*]Alexander H. Stephens is one of the the most important statesmen in American History. Even after the war he served as a US Representative and died as Governor of Georgia. The US Capitol even has a statue recognizing him. How's that for a dirty unamerican rebel![/list=a]
~~RvFvS~~

~~RvFvS~~

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11-10-2002, 05:28 PM	#45
Puck Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: A middle aged body. Posts: 3,459	I wrote this yesterday morning, and wasn't sure to share it or not. When one talks about slavery, it can be very emotional issue, and when emotions get involved, we misunderstand each other easily. I didn't want to get involved in a flame war over something that can't be undone anyway. None the less, after reading todays posts, I think I'll share what I wrote. "What good things are attached to the Confederate flag?" Wow, it would take a long time to teach the history behind Southern attitudes today. (I'll attempt a small run down.) Some of those attitudes are correct, some Southerners have very incorrect attitudes as do alot of Northerners. Asshole-ness is not indemic to the South exclussivly. The South did not invent slavery, but it became very successful here, it was an integral part of the Southern economy. There was also slavery in the northern parts of our country for quite awhile, but agriculture wasn't the basis for the Northern economy and it was much easier for Northerners to abandon slavery. Just as today we depend on some things that we know are bad for us (fume spewing tractor trailers to get our goods to market?), we can't just stop using them today or our economy would crumble. If we wish to abandon something that isn't right, we must transition into the change. Many Southern slave owners were well aware that slavery was immoral and changes must be made. Slavery had already been abolished in England and the North, and the South was next. The Big Problem was that the North wanted it done right now. Alas, they didn't want to see (or perhaps they did see?) that 'it was the economy, stupid'. The white Southerners knew you couldn't take almost half of the population, who were uneducated (for the most part), and just turn them lose with no way to become functioning citizens. The North pushed, the South pushed back at the North. The slaves were desperate for their freedom, some tried to push, and before we knew it, things had gone quite horrible. What would things be like if the North hadn't of pushed for an immediate ban on slavery in the South? If the slaves had been taught to read and write, operate their own businesses, etc.? After all, the slaves were us, half of the people living in the South. In alot of cases, they were not only childhood best friends, but brothers and sisters. Some families spent generations together working side by side. Yes, there were terrible, horrible things that went on, I will be the first to say it. I'm a genealogist, I've read alot of old wills and inventories of the deceased from the time, and (cold chills) bills of sale for human beings. There are African-American families today with the same last name I was born with for a reason. Unknown to the church members, there is a black man buried next to my Great Great Grandfather; it was the former slave's dying request to be buried next to 'marse Ben'...the request was respected, for whatever the reason. Someday they are in for a shock when I give that man a proper headstone, hehehe. I'm sure it is as hard for someone up-north to understand us Southerners as it is for us to understand them all the time. But our history is part of what makes us who we are. We go slower, talk 'different'. We have a strange mixture of pride and shame about our history, since shame won't change things, we focus on the pride. There are still lingering predjudcies, seen on TV in the form of the Confederate Flag wavers angry at Georgia's new State Flag. In the small community I live in, I still see older African-Americans doing what I call the Shuffle. I'm sure they don't even realize they do it. We aren't perfect, but I wouldn't be happy anywhere else. I know how to function here, we walk over to a person we wish to say hi to, instead of yelling hey vinnie at the top of our lungs. We hug in public, even if we've only met the person once. Uncle Bob dies? Everyone who knows his family will fill the house with food, really good food, and it doesn't matter if Uncle Bob was the biggest asshole in the county, his family members won't be alone at the graveside. The old women still wear furs at social functions, and even the anti-fur locals would protect them from abuse. We love gossip, men and women alike. Our food is different. We don't swear in pubilc out of respect for those who don't wish to hear it. We are passionate about the things we believe, albiet sometimes we are wrong, LOL! Yes, we have alot of ignorance here. So do Northerners, but ours are funnier. Hey Bubba?! Watch me do this. There are still huge racial problems here in the South. I don't see them getting any better as long as no one wants to do the history and the heart to heart talking we need to do. Our 'Former Unpleasantness' still impacts us today, and for the most part, the whole country is ignorant as to why. "What good things are attached to the Confederate flag? Isn't it just a code symbol for southern resistance to integration? " Many idiots have made the Flag a code symbol for southern resistance to integration, yes. Starting in the 50's it was used to the shame of the men who fought under it, as a banner for Jim Crow. Those men and the Yankees shook hands after the end of the war. Years later they marched side by side on anniverseries. Please try to understand that just because the Confederate Flag was despoiled in the name of Jim Crow, for may of us it is not a banner of Jim Crow, but a flag we honor as we honor our ancestors. There was alot of history leading up to that War, and alot that followed. If you haven't taken the time to look at it from both (all?) sides, then it becomes an emotional issue. Slavery was and is wrong. The past is past. There is still slavery today, if you have a problem with the past, perhaps you ought to work on the present problems?

11-10-2002, 05:35 PM	#46
Puck Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: A middle aged body. Posts: 3,459	Point 1: It's "y'all," not "ya'll" or did your fancy northern schoolin' not teach you that? Hey, I use ya'll all the time, and I ain't got no fancy northern schoolin'. So, ya'll just hush up Rufus for I carry Bubba in on this here spat! LOL!

11-11-2002, 05:59 PM	#47
frostymama Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Georgia USA Posts: 927	I've lived in the South since I was 8 years old (born in Indiana). My family traces its roots back 2 centuries on nearly every line to the South. I grew up with southern and mountain culture. I would have to estimate that at least 90% of the people I have known here have been backwards racist pricks. I have NEVER met any person (other than Civil war reenactors) that displayed the Confederate flag that wasn't a vocal racist as well. You may be able to argue that the flag doesn't represent racism, but that is what it has meant to every person I have met who had an opinion on the issue (whether they were for or against it.)

11-11-2002, 06:46 PM	#48
Uzzah Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Tennessee Posts: 196	I'm from Chattanooga, two hours north of Atlanta..and I'll second FrostyMomma's point. While the Confederate flag might not signify racism, the people who raise it up this day and age do. Uzzah

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