Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jlowder · 11-09-2002, 07:24 PM

I've been reading various books that address this question, but I thought it would be interesting to poll the members of this board. Can values exist independently of valuers? Why or why not?

Jeffery Jay Lowder

Bill Snedden · 11-09-2002, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jlowder:
Can values exist independently of valuers? Why or why not?

I would say "no". "Value" presupposes a "valuer" by definition.

There are no definitions of "value" of which I can think that don't presuppose a judgement made by a conscious mind. It seems to me that the very meaning of "value" includes the necessity of such a judgement.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

tronvillain · 11-09-2002, 10:02 PM

No. I am, as Bill is, unaware of any coherent definition of "value" which does not require a "valuer."

Pomp · 11-09-2002, 10:33 PM

No.

I can't think of any way to argue for the existence of values without presupposing that someone is there to do the valuing.

jlowder · 11-09-2002, 11:38 PM

Related to my question, I recently stumbled across a statement from moral philosopher Geoffrey Sayre-McCord asserting that ideal observer theories are subjectivist:

Quote:

Or again, a subjectivist about value might hold that judgments of value are not relative to judgers but are still true, when they are true, only because of the desires, preferences, or goals of some particular person (rather than anyone). For instance, according to Ideal Observer theories, whether something has value (or at least whether something is right) depends on whether it would be approved of by some observer ideally constituted and situated.

Comments?

Jeffery Jay Lowder

MadMordigan · 11-10-2002, 01:25 AM

whether something has value (or at least whether something is right) depends on whether it would be approved of by some observer ideally constituted and situated.

Of course, the unstated irony is that those 'ideal' conditions are only ideal based upon the values of the moral philospher imagining such an observer.

luvluv · 11-10-2002, 07:50 AM

I'd also say no.

99Percent · 11-10-2002, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jlowder:
I've been reading various books that address this question, but I thought it would be interesting to poll the members of this board. Can values exist independently of valuers? Why or why not?

Jeffery Jay Lowder

No. But some values are absolute, that is they exist by all valuers such as truth and life.

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: 99Percent ]

Amen-Moses · 11-10-2002, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 99Percent:
No. But some values are absolute, that is they exist by all valuers such as truth and life.

How is life a "value"?

How is truth "absolute"?

Amen-Moses

11-10-2002, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jlowder:
I've been reading various books that address this question, but I thought it would be interesting to poll the members of this board. Can values exist independently of valuers? Why or why not?

Jeffery Jay Lowder

The sanctity of life does not require moral philosopher but any philospher should recognize this as an intrinsic value. We can upset the money-changers' tables in all churches but if we do this we must replace it by the precincts of natural law. These laws are based on subjective values and as long as we are not objective idealists we will have no need for objective values or moral laws to recognize and endorse the sanctity of life in general. I am thinking here of "a broken reed he shall not crush."

11-09-2002, 07:24 PM	#1
jlowder Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: USA Posts: 274	Do Values Require Valuers? I've been reading various books that address this question, but I thought it would be interesting to poll the members of this board. Can values exist independently of valuers? Why or why not? Jeffery Jay Lowder

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11-09-2002, 10:02 PM	#3
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	No. I am, as Bill is, unaware of any coherent definition of "value" which does not require a "valuer."

11-09-2002, 10:33 PM	#4
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	No. I can't think of any way to argue for the existence of values without presupposing that someone is there to do the valuing.

11-10-2002, 01:25 AM	#6
MadMordigan Beloved Deceased Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 2,704	whether something has value (or at least whether something is right) depends on whether it would be approved of by some observer ideally constituted and situated. Of course, the unstated irony is that those 'ideal' conditions are only ideal based upon the values of the moral philospher imagining such an observer.

11-10-2002, 07:50 AM	#7
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	I'd also say no.

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