Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vicar Philip · 02-25-2003, 12:56 PM

JCS,

I do realize bitching and moaning get nothing accomplished. I will reserve judgement for my predictions of our future until we go to the first counseling session. If she is very negative, combative, and accusatory towards me, I will probably have no other course but to pursue divorce.

However, if she comes out of her depressed, self-pitying cave and makes an effort to participate with the counselor, I will see that as a positive step.

Reading back on the thread almost requires one to take motion sickness pills. Yes, I know it's worse than a goddamn roller coaster. I never had any idea how important "god" was in her life, nor did she know how unimportant it has ever been in my life. For that, I blame myself, because I have always sheepishly avoided discussing religious issues, such as evolution. I always knew she had a negative opinion of it, so I avoided talking about it. My mistake. She's not the only one screwing up in this relationship. I've always been passive, which I've freely admitted throughout this entire thread. It's hard for an old dog to learn new tricks, not to mention it upsets the status quo.

Regardless, I love the woman, and I know what kind of relationship we CAN have. If she could raise her self-esteem to something other than a negative value, I believe I'd see a world of difference in her. That's what I'm hoping for with the counseling, as well as both of us learning how to argue without all the psycho shit.

Over and out.

D

Muad'Dib · 02-25-2003, 01:10 PM

Wow. It took me a week, but I made it to here all the way from page 1.

I'm amazed by your stamina and resolve, VP. Speaking as a youngster who's never been married, I've learned a lot about the dedication and fortitude required in a real committed relationship. Your sharing your situation here has been very helpful, at least to me.

You'll get much better advice from others, but I have to toss out just one thing, based on my extended family's experience with divorce: Talk to a lawyer.

I know you're tired of hearing that. Here's one good thing that might come from such a meeting, though. If your wife or one of her friends has already consulted a divorce attorney of their own, they may be watching for you to do certain things that would indicate instability or irresponsibility. If you consult a lawyer, he or she may be able to tell you what things not to do, and you might avoid throwing those red flags. So instead of being the first step toward separation, a consultation might be one of the things that helps to save your marriage.

Just two cents, fwiw; if it's not helpful feel free to throw it out.

Best wishes, and keep us posted.

HelenM · 02-25-2003, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vicar Philip
. If she could raise her self-esteem to something other than a negative value, I believe I'd see a world of difference in her. That's what I'm hoping for with the counseling, as well as both of us learning how to argue without all the psycho shit.

Who knows what will happen...but it certainly would be neat (I think) if you could help her find her way to a better self-image. I think it's an awesome thing when you find a way to help someone you deeply care about.

Best wishes with improving the quality of your arguing, then...

Helen

Non-praying Mantis · 02-25-2003, 03:28 PM

Sorry to get on your ass, but:

Quote:

Originally posted by Vicar Philip
1) Saved this entire thread on my computer.
2) Saved every e-mail throughout this ordeal.
3) Saved numerous voice mail messages from her.
4) Recorded one of our conversations where she refused to negotiate.
5) Taken pictures of the burned guitar.

But you still haven't
6) consulted a lawyer

I have seen this pattern happen about three times in this thread already. You have problems with your wife, we tell you to consult a lawyer, then the problems get better for a while, then the cycle repeats. Getting a lawyer does NOT mean you want a divorce, and the cost for this type of consultation should be minimal. You don't even need to see him/her again after consultation if the situation does not change.

Please, see a lawyer before it's too late!

NPM

BadBadBad · 02-25-2003, 04:17 PM

Let's give Darren a break here. We can't know what it's like to be in his shoes. I watched my brother-in-law go through this shit over infidelity. He earned a lot of respect from me on how he handled it. This even though it seemed from the outside that he was a sucker many times over. He held out the olive branch over and over way beyond what I thought I could ever endure. I don't know how he did it, but he deserved respect for it. In the end, he got it from everyone in the family. She didn't. That has value.

But eventually, he did talk to a lawyer.

Bumble Bee Tuna · 02-25-2003, 06:16 PM

Darren, you make me very happy with your list of things you have done, that is very good news. I still think you should consult a lawyer, though.

I think from reading this thread it is pretty evident that this is the most agreed-upon advice people are giving you, as well as the most emphatically repeated. I would think this implies something about its importance. I mean, you don't have to, and I'm certainly mainly saying it because everyone else is and I think they know what they're talking about. But it seems like damn good advice. Some sort of frustration management therapy might be nice too, in a dream world of infinite finances.

-B

Vicar Philip · 02-25-2003, 06:55 PM

Today my wife came down and went to lunch with me. Before we went in the restaurant we sat in the van and talked for an hour. I think it was very productive, mainly in that she finally understood where I was coming from with the checkbook deal. I told her how frustrated I get when she accuses me of not letting her buy something when I'm simply preventing us from bouncing a check. She acknowledged my reasoning.

We also discussed her childhood a bit, and she admitted to me that one of the reasons she married me was because, in some respects, I was like her father (at that time). And she's right, I was fairly selfish, callous, and didn't treat her very well. I never hit her, but I was still similar to her father in many other regards. She did say that I'm not like that now.

We went in after lots of tears and ate, and that was going well until she brought up a song by the Dixie Chicks, "Landslide." She had asked me some time ago to listen to it, and I never had. I didn't realize how important it was to her. She was extremely let down that I hadn't taken the time to simply listen to it. We sat in the van talking for another half hour, and both felt better. Later I did listen to the song and e-mailed her.

When I got home tonight, we talked some more. She really is serious about going to counseling with me, as she mentioned it several times. We talked about aspects of her childhood in ways we never have before. She told me she can see how her lack of trust and fear of abandonment by me go directly back to several very traumatic incidents in her childhood, and she apologized to me. I think she's finally beginning to realize just what an effect all those bad things had on her psyche and self-esteem. Yes, I know it's obvious to most everyone here, but believe me it's a big step for her to drop her guard and explore those very painful caverns of her life.

As far as seeking legal advice, of course I know it is only common sense. And I have called a couple of divorce attorneys, but never made an actual appointment. I've looked at quite a few divorce websites, strategies, advice, etc. Call me naive, call me crazy, but I think I've been looking at her outbursts and wild mood swings the wrong way. The easiest explanation, of course, is that she is purposely hurting me in childish ways because she's immature and used to getting her way and I'm rocking the boat.

But when I look at this whole mess a little closer, I've noticed a few things. Right around the time I professed my atheism to her, she had just had a nasty encounter with her mother at Wal-Mart. Because she was the customer service manager, she was forced to deal with her face-to-face. Seeing her and having to ineract with her makes my wife extremely tense, and brings all the old feelings of insecurity and betrayal rushing in. Because she doesn't want to confront her mother, she directs these feelings toward me. This is one of the main realizations we got out of our conversation tonight. Shortly after this problem my wife began working the crazy 80 hour shifts. In a way I think she welcomed the hours because it didn't allow her to dwell on her personal demons.

I am not defending my wife's behavior, nor did she in our conversation. She admitted she was wrong in the physical things she has done. Going to a lawyer right now and talking about how to strategize against my wife would seem like slapping away her hand as she reached up to me for help from a pit of lava. Again, I am withholding judgement until we go to the counselor. I am hoping to go next week, and she is planning on it too.

Vicar

HelenM · 02-25-2003, 07:18 PM

Wow...sounds like you had an emotional but very productive day, relationship-wise

Helen

christ-on-a-stick · 02-25-2003, 07:23 PM

Hi Darren,

Way back when in this thread I recounted my experience of my first marriage (during which I deconverted) which failed, but what I would like to share now is something personal from a totally different perspective.

I guess the thing is... in the way that you are describing a lot of your wife's behavior and her childhood issues, I can't help but think that I used to be a lot like her in many ways, irrespective of the theism part - emotionally. Urgh, it is painful just thinking about some of it but your recounting of her wild ups and downs has really struck a chord in me. It sounds like she had a difficult upbringing and reminds me of something that I wrote not too long ago when reflecting on how our early years can haunt us even after we are fullfledged adults:

The child's pain never quite goes away. It lurks quietly in the darkest corners of your heart, and you may think it's been erased, purged or somehow healed over and safely locked away, but the moment will come when you realize it's still there, as fresh and fierce as it ever was, when you first felt it at three or five or seven or however old - the sting of your father's rejection that made you feel ugly. Unlovable. Unworthy.

Darren I think it is a good thing that you obviously love your wife so very much and are still willing after everything to see her as a fellow human being and not the enemy... especially considering that you two have created a family together, I find it commendable that you appear to take your wedding vows very seriously - even if you are an Evil Atheist (TM)

So much for us not having any morals, right?

Anyway I guess my point is (meandering as it might be) that as much as I agree with the bazillion other posters who have suggested none-too-subtly that you consult legal counsel to protect yourself , and you MUST protect yourself (you can't live your life for someone else or being walked on even if they do have problems), I think it speaks well of you that you are so invested in your marriage and motivated to keep your family intact.

Also, I can't stress enough that it seems very very clear to me - having been there - that in addition to marriage counseling your wife is in dire need of some intensive personal therapy to help her deal with the issues that are still apparently affecting her life so very negatively. (Esp. the stuff with her mom... I can relate SO MUCH and if you want to discuss any of that in more detail please don't hesitate to PM me.) It has taken me a lot of therapy (and psychoactive drugs! LOL - but seriously) to be a very different person than the raving property-destroying irrational manipulative person that I was once upon a time. Now I am "me", minus the baggage... but damn that shit was heavy.

Sorry for rambling... I just wanted to get that off my chest. My thoughts are with you Darren!!!

Lauri

Bumble Bee Tuna · 02-25-2003, 09:42 PM

Yay Darren! I am very happy for you. This recent post sounds like so much progress and so much good news that I'd almost tell you to forget about the lawyer thing. But, because I recognize a pattern here of makeup-fight-makeup-fight-makeup-fight I still think a lawyer's a good idea because we can't know if this will last. It does sound more promising than some other makeup periods, though. Talking is good.

BTW, tell your wife that you were so interested in "Landslide" that you looked into it further and found out that it was originally done by Fleetwood Mac (I think) and the original touched your heart even more than the Dixie Chicks' version. This will touch her heart for your dedication to her and her song choice as well as making me happy for not allowing the song to be attributed to the Dixie Chicks.

-B

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02-25-2003, 12:56 PM	#711
Vicar Philip Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Cozy little chapel of me own Posts: 1,162	JCS, I do realize bitching and moaning get nothing accomplished. I will reserve judgement for my predictions of our future until we go to the first counseling session. If she is very negative, combative, and accusatory towards me, I will probably have no other course but to pursue divorce. However, if she comes out of her depressed, self-pitying cave and makes an effort to participate with the counselor, I will see that as a positive step. Reading back on the thread almost requires one to take motion sickness pills. Yes, I know it's worse than a goddamn roller coaster. I never had any idea how important "god" was in her life, nor did she know how unimportant it has ever been in my life. For that, I blame myself, because I have always sheepishly avoided discussing religious issues, such as evolution. I always knew she had a negative opinion of it, so I avoided talking about it. My mistake. She's not the only one screwing up in this relationship. I've always been passive, which I've freely admitted throughout this entire thread. It's hard for an old dog to learn new tricks, not to mention it upsets the status quo. Regardless, I love the woman, and I know what kind of relationship we CAN have. If she could raise her self-esteem to something other than a negative value, I believe I'd see a world of difference in her. That's what I'm hoping for with the counseling, as well as both of us learning how to argue without all the psycho shit. Over and out. D

02-25-2003, 01:10 PM	#712
Muad'Dib Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 845	Wow. It took me a week, but I made it to here all the way from page 1. I'm amazed by your stamina and resolve, VP. Speaking as a youngster who's never been married, I've learned a lot about the dedication and fortitude required in a real committed relationship. Your sharing your situation here has been very helpful, at least to me. You'll get much better advice from others, but I have to toss out just one thing, based on my extended family's experience with divorce: Talk to a lawyer. I know you're tired of hearing that. Here's one good thing that might come from such a meeting, though. If your wife or one of her friends has already consulted a divorce attorney of their own, they may be watching for you to do certain things that would indicate instability or irresponsibility. If you consult a lawyer, he or she may be able to tell you what things not to do, and you might avoid throwing those red flags. So instead of being the first step toward separation, a consultation might be one of the things that helps to save your marriage. Just two cents, fwiw; if it's not helpful feel free to throw it out. Best wishes, and keep us posted.

02-25-2003, 04:17 PM	#715
BadBadBad Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: WHERE GOD IS NOT!!!!! Posts: 4,338	Let's give Darren a break here. We can't know what it's like to be in his shoes. I watched my brother-in-law go through this shit over infidelity. He earned a lot of respect from me on how he handled it. This even though it seemed from the outside that he was a sucker many times over. He held out the olive branch over and over way beyond what I thought I could ever endure. I don't know how he did it, but he deserved respect for it. In the end, he got it from everyone in the family. She didn't. That has value. But eventually, he did talk to a lawyer.

02-25-2003, 06:16 PM	#716
Bumble Bee Tuna Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Middletown, CT Posts: 7,333	Darren, you make me very happy with your list of things you have done, that is very good news. I still think you should consult a lawyer, though. I think from reading this thread it is pretty evident that this is the most agreed-upon advice people are giving you, as well as the most emphatically repeated. I would think this implies something about its importance. I mean, you don't have to, and I'm certainly mainly saying it because everyone else is and I think they know what they're talking about. But it seems like damn good advice. Some sort of frustration management therapy might be nice too, in a dream world of infinite finances. -B

02-25-2003, 06:55 PM	#717
Vicar Philip Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Cozy little chapel of me own Posts: 1,162	Today my wife came down and went to lunch with me. Before we went in the restaurant we sat in the van and talked for an hour. I think it was very productive, mainly in that she finally understood where I was coming from with the checkbook deal. I told her how frustrated I get when she accuses me of not letting her buy something when I'm simply preventing us from bouncing a check. She acknowledged my reasoning. We also discussed her childhood a bit, and she admitted to me that one of the reasons she married me was because, in some respects, I was like her father (at that time). And she's right, I was fairly selfish, callous, and didn't treat her very well. I never hit her, but I was still similar to her father in many other regards. She did say that I'm not like that now. We went in after lots of tears and ate, and that was going well until she brought up a song by the Dixie Chicks, "Landslide." She had asked me some time ago to listen to it, and I never had. I didn't realize how important it was to her. She was extremely let down that I hadn't taken the time to simply listen to it. We sat in the van talking for another half hour, and both felt better. Later I did listen to the song and e-mailed her. When I got home tonight, we talked some more. She really is serious about going to counseling with me, as she mentioned it several times. We talked about aspects of her childhood in ways we never have before. She told me she can see how her lack of trust and fear of abandonment by me go directly back to several very traumatic incidents in her childhood, and she apologized to me. I think she's finally beginning to realize just what an effect all those bad things had on her psyche and self-esteem. Yes, I know it's obvious to most everyone here, but believe me it's a big step for her to drop her guard and explore those very painful caverns of her life. As far as seeking legal advice, of course I know it is only common sense. And I have called a couple of divorce attorneys, but never made an actual appointment. I've looked at quite a few divorce websites, strategies, advice, etc. Call me naive, call me crazy, but I think I've been looking at her outbursts and wild mood swings the wrong way. The easiest explanation, of course, is that she is purposely hurting me in childish ways because she's immature and used to getting her way and I'm rocking the boat. But when I look at this whole mess a little closer, I've noticed a few things. Right around the time I professed my atheism to her, she had just had a nasty encounter with her mother at Wal-Mart. Because she was the customer service manager, she was forced to deal with her face-to-face. Seeing her and having to ineract with her makes my wife extremely tense, and brings all the old feelings of insecurity and betrayal rushing in. Because she doesn't want to confront her mother, she directs these feelings toward me. This is one of the main realizations we got out of our conversation tonight. Shortly after this problem my wife began working the crazy 80 hour shifts. In a way I think she welcomed the hours because it didn't allow her to dwell on her personal demons. I am not defending my wife's behavior, nor did she in our conversation. She admitted she was wrong in the physical things she has done. Going to a lawyer right now and talking about how to strategize against my wife would seem like slapping away her hand as she reached up to me for help from a pit of lava. Again, I am withholding judgement until we go to the counselor. I am hoping to go next week, and she is planning on it too. Vicar

02-25-2003, 07:18 PM	#718
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	Wow...sounds like you had an emotional but very productive day, relationship-wise Helen

02-25-2003, 07:23 PM	#719
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	Hi Darren, Way back when in this thread I recounted my experience of my first marriage (during which I deconverted) which failed, but what I would like to share now is something personal from a totally different perspective. I guess the thing is... in the way that you are describing a lot of your wife's behavior and her childhood issues, I can't help but think that I used to be a lot like her in many ways, irrespective of the theism part - emotionally. Urgh, it is painful just thinking about some of it but your recounting of her wild ups and downs has really struck a chord in me. It sounds like she had a difficult upbringing and reminds me of something that I wrote not too long ago when reflecting on how our early years can haunt us even after we are fullfledged adults: The child's pain never quite goes away. It lurks quietly in the darkest corners of your heart, and you may think it's been erased, purged or somehow healed over and safely locked away, but the moment will come when you realize it's still there, as fresh and fierce as it ever was, when you first felt it at three or five or seven or however old - the sting of your father's rejection that made you feel ugly. Unlovable. Unworthy. Darren I think it is a good thing that you obviously love your wife so very much and are still willing after everything to see her as a fellow human being and not the enemy... especially considering that you two have created a family together, I find it commendable that you appear to take your wedding vows very seriously - even if you are an Evil Atheist (TM) So much for us not having any morals, right? Anyway I guess my point is (meandering as it might be) that as much as I agree with the bazillion other posters who have suggested none-too-subtly that you consult legal counsel to protect yourself , and you MUST protect yourself (you can't live your life for someone else or being walked on even if they do have problems), I think it speaks well of you that you are so invested in your marriage and motivated to keep your family intact. Also, I can't stress enough that it seems very very clear to me - having been there - that in addition to marriage counseling your wife is in dire need of some intensive personal therapy to help her deal with the issues that are still apparently affecting her life so very negatively. (Esp. the stuff with her mom... I can relate SO MUCH and if you want to discuss any of that in more detail please don't hesitate to PM me.) It has taken me a lot of therapy (and psychoactive drugs! LOL - but seriously) to be a very different person than the raving property-destroying irrational manipulative person that I was once upon a time. Now I am "me", minus the baggage... but damn that shit was heavy. Sorry for rambling... I just wanted to get that off my chest. My thoughts are with you Darren!!! Lauri

02-25-2003, 09:42 PM	#720
Bumble Bee Tuna Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Middletown, CT Posts: 7,333	Yay Darren! I am very happy for you. This recent post sounds like so much progress and so much good news that I'd almost tell you to forget about the lawyer thing. But, because I recognize a pattern here of makeup-fight-makeup-fight-makeup-fight I still think a lawyer's a good idea because we can't know if this will last. It does sound more promising than some other makeup periods, though. Talking is good. BTW, tell your wife that you were so interested in "Landslide" that you looked into it further and found out that it was originally done by Fleetwood Mac (I think) and the original touched your heart even more than the Dixie Chicks' version. This will touch her heart for your dedication to her and her song choice as well as making me happy for not allowing the song to be attributed to the Dixie Chicks. -B

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