xorbie

I was online recently (good 'ole yahoo chat) and two people were debating the logical attack on the EoG that goes as follows:

(1) The tri-omni God would be able to do anything
(2) Thus, God could create a rock that God can't lift
(3) God can't lift this rock
(4) God does not exist

Now this, to me, seems like bullshit. However, it got me thinking. One question needs to be answered. First off, is one of the properties of God that it is outside of logic? And is God literally everything, that is to say does God both exist and not exist?

Now I am gonna assume, basically for the sake of all future arguments that God is subject to the laws of logic, or basically that the laws of logic are still supreme. Thus, the orinigal argument against the EoG is incorrect because the rock in question cannot logically exist. This seems to be some sort of semi-circular logic... but if God did exist then this rock could not exist. And if a rock exists that God can't lift, doesn't that mean God exists?

Thus, either God does not exist (not proven by this, of course), or God does exist and the rock is a logically inconsistent object and thus God can be all powerful without the ability to create this object, or both the rock and God exist, despite the fact that this is logically impossible.

Any thoughts (or need for clairification as I suck with making things way too complicated)?

pariah

you know, this arguement always seemed "childish" to me but now.....well i cant seem invalidate it either (w/o christian arguments).

i can see someone saying that god is outside the realm of human understanding, and therefore logic, but if he was...how would one worship him? how can xians claim to have personal relationships with him if he is outside of understanding...hmmm

xorbie

Yeah... looking over other debates and readng some literature, I see that it is actually rather common place to define omnipotence as simply having the ability to carry out all logically possible actions, so problem solved (I hope.)

The_Unknown_Banana

I think that was a problem cooked up by theists whilst trying to determine a definition (or the attributes) of God. (Well, that's what I learnt in philosophy today anyway! )

Another problem (admittedly kinda silly) was whether God could legally use someone elses chequebook (ie. fraud). However you look at it, if he doesn't change the law or our definitions, it is not logically possible.

Hence I think the answer was that he could only do what is logically possible...

Stephen T-B

Gods don't need to be logical because they are figments of the human imagination, which can give them any quality it likes without having to account to the demands of logic.

scumble

A thread I just read at Theology Forums, one of the chaps was essentially say God can do anything, and is always above sin. So he could use someone else's checkbook, and I don't think it has much to do with logic. Constraining God with logic is also a limitation, I suppose. Most of the stuff that God does in the Bible is rather illogical, or arbitrary.

I think that was a problem cooked up by theists..

Perhaps. I wouldn't use it to argue against God myself.

It's not really a constraint on power if you can't create a rock you are unable to move. It's just a game with words.

Darth Dane

Asking if God can create a rock God can't lift, is a void question. It cannot be answered as it is a logic impossibility.

The answer is "Mu", meaning the question was wrongly asked, or the question doesn't have an answer that will fullfil logical conclusions.

My answer to this is usually: Everything is possible.


But talking about God seems like it has to be logic, until we run into the contradictions as we see. These run-ins show us where we have to transcend the Mind(logic) to "understand."




DD - Love & Laughter

The_Unknown_Banana

But this is precisely what the point of the argument was about, I believe. The question doesn't have an answer that will fulfill logical conclusions... but it shouldn't matter what the question or problem is - if God can do anything illogically possible, then he should have a way of doing such a thing.

Since he obviously cannot perform all logically contradictory scenarios that we define (Without a bit of trickery), his omnipotence is limited to the logically possible.

Darth Dane

Ok can God ascend and descend at the same time?

Same problem, however logically God can only Do one thing at a time as we do. But God is not limited to a body to one direction!

God now has two moving bodies, but the two bodies are connected, no matter the distance, no matter if the connection can be seen by human eyes, they are connected.

Is God two? or One?

God is always one in essence, but can even go against Godself(from our point of view!!!) God is just playing, a cosmic dance...of Love?









DD - Love & Laughter

Jobar

We hear apologists say that God is eternal, somehow existing outside of time.

Without time, logic is inapplicable.

Think about it. Many statements of logic imply some sort of time-dependent function. 'If A, then B.'

A time-independent God would also be a logic-independent God; and also one we can say nothing whatsoever about, even whether it exists or not!