Volker.Doormann

That seems to be wonderful. It looks like, that the discriminators for skepticism are also located in the cerebrum.

The problem which is coupled with this teaching is, that if truth would be really a creation of brains, that there would not be an absolute reference for truth. This means, that each 'true' arguing of a brain is of no general or universal meaning. If one brain creates a different truth to another brain, this two truth's collides as contradiction. It seems, that at least one of the two created truth's must be wrong, if not both, if one accepts, that a contradiction must be respected.

One can learn from the science of physics, that the truth of nature is to be understand by brains, but not to be created by brains. There is no reason to change this practice, only because the subject has no physical properties.

Volker

Mageth

I think it is helpful to learn something about the spiritual meaning of spiritual ‘existence’ before running against phantoms.

I'm a bit disappointed. Everything you said was in a non-spiritual language and had non-spiritual meaning.

Beyond that, what you have listed, and which you have classified as physical appearance, there each one can recognize an immaterial spiritual order, which is not to be shown as of an order of physical forces.

Not me.

Because these ‘things’ are immaterial, they have no location and not time.
From this it can be followed, that a heaven, as it is understand by people in the history of religion, has no location and no time.

In other words, heaven and hell don't exist. We can agree on that much, unless you can demonstrate how something "immaterial" with no location and no time can "exist" or be experienced in any meaningful sense.

Hawkingfan

I'm not exactly sure if we are talking about the same thing. But yes, I would say that descriminators for skepticism are in the cerebrum.
Are you asking the question, "Does truth exist outside of our ability to perceive it?" I would have to say yes. But truth is perceived differently by different people. Therefore, your "problem" in your second paragraph DOES exist. There may be absolute truths outside of our brains, but it is perceived differently by those different brains. It's almost as if there may as well not be an absolute reference. It most certainly is the case that "If one brain creates a different truth to another brain, this two truth's collides as contradiction. It seems, that at least one of the two created truth's must be wrong, if not both, if one accepts, that a contradiction must be respected." This is a good description of what is going on with arguing theists and atheists. I agree 100% with your last paragraph.

Volker.Doormann

I think there exist a 6. It's existance can be found twice in a 12 and can be solved in 2 times 3. It can be found in a cube and is very helpful for diving a circle in equal peaces.

Volker

Mageth

I think there exist a 6. It's existance can be found twice in a 12 and can be solved in 2 times 3. It can be found in a cube and is very helpful for diving a circle in equal peaces.

Are you saying heaven is going to be an integer, or a concept? I honestly don't get it.

Try living in a 6 for a while, then come back and tell us what the experience was like. What does the inside of a 6 look like? Is the food good? Is there much to do there?

WWSD

Indeed, I was discussing the biological origins of the soul here.

Volker.Doormann

You have asked for a demonstration of how something "immaterial" with no location and no time can "exist" or be experienced in any meaningful sense.

A 6 has no material properties. A 6 has no location. A 6 has no time. With a 6 one can experience in many meaningful sense.

Got it?

Quote:

Try living in a 6 for a while, then come back and tell us what the experience was like. What does the inside of a 6 look like? Is the food good? Is there much to do there?

You are in the wrong environment. Living is only possible in a world of time and space. Eating is a process in time and in space. Acting is only possible in a space with processes using time.

I do not have the impression, that it is helpful to understand the origin meaning of heaven in a religious sense (eternal & alocal) if some elementary truth of nature beyond physical forces is rejected. I have written here: "If one argues, that there is no spiritual ‘existence’ beyond physical forces, then he must reject: numbers, letters, logic, math, ethic, truth/false-separation, justice/injustice-separation, harmony, poetry, and the laws of algebra in music, because all this ‘things’ can be recognized as immaterial, alocal and timeless." If you could show, that some of this tools have material properties, can be localized or do depending on time, you are welcome. If not, this proves, that if one make use of it, it has a spiritual existence beyond a physical existence. No one can make use of a 6 and is saying: 'Today 6 has great values, because the government is fighting a war'. No one can make use of logic and is saying: 'Because justice has no physical properties, the law of causality is independent to the opinion of Atheists'.

I have written here about the roots in understanding a heaven and a hell as spiritual symbols of perfection and imperfection. There are no physical properties connected to these symbols. Fact is, that there is no perfection in human acting in this world and fact is, that this imperfect acting results in war in this world, with it's well existing sorrow to involved souls. This sorrow is not abstract to the involved souls. It is very real.

To exit from this environment, that was called hell by ancient myth writers, to an environment, that is free of imperfection, free of time and free of locations, was named heaven by ancient myth writers. There is no need to discredit nonexistent physical places, but maybe an update in understanding about the meaning of this myth symbols from the scriptures.

Volker

Volker.Doormann

Truth can be perceived if one is aware of the very normal life. Truth as an abstraction is of no value. Natural science of physics rejects the dimension of ethic. But if an scientist is confronted himself with injustice from his social environment, he is lamenting on it.

Spiritual order is also a part of nature as the order of physical forces. And this can be recognized or perceived as truth directly.



It seems so, but as the nature of physics teach us, there is no contradiction in the physical world. There is no and never a truth in the physical reality, which is simultaneously untrue. From this we can learn, that it is not the nature, which contains contradictions, but the individual imperfection in recognizing truth.

I think that it is not of a great value to create labels or to discuss labels. Who cares about a god or many gods, who cares about labels or self created ideas. I think it is necessary to respect spirituality as a part of nature with it's attributes of truth and love. Not as an idea, it should be respected because it can be perceived, that an individual consciousness, which is aware about it's order, is free from the claims of religions regarding obscure ethics, which is to be recognized as a slavery to the individual to religious imperfect authorities claiming perfection. But all this nonsense claiming religious authorities does not make untrue the very real perception of love and truth by an individual. Different to the remote functions of physics the spiritual order cannot be proved as an external function, and because of this it must be recognized by each individual himself. Truth is not to be shown, it is only to be recognized by the individual. If this would be wrong, one could buy truth in a supermarket.

Volker

Hawkingfan

Why do you call these non-physical things "spiritual"?

Hawkingfan

I don't think this properly addresses sourdough's argument, because as I said before it is not the atheist who claims that hell is a physical place, but the Christian. The Christian and the bible cannot describe hell with physical descriptions (fire, pain, lakes, darkness) and then someone like you comes along and says it is not physical.