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Old 03-18-2003, 04:58 PM   #1
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Default if there was Haven?

or Hell as some of you believe,how would your soul(if there was such a thing)experience it?
you need your physical body to feel,breathe,see, hear,think,when the body dies,you cant obviously feel anything.
if your soul(what is it made of,btw) ended in Hell,how long would it burn?NOTHING can burn forever!
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Old 03-18-2003, 05:16 PM   #2
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Default Re: if there was Haven?

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Originally posted by sourdough
or Hell as some of you believe,how would your soul(if there was such a thing)experience it?
you need your physical body to feel,breathe,see, hear,think,when the body dies,you cant obviously feel anything.
if your soul(what is it made of,btw) ended in Hell,how long would it burn?NOTHING can burn forever!
Haven like the Grey Havens?

Sorry...

No, really if there were a heaven your soul would experience it through interactions between spiritons (which make up your soul) and heaventinos. It's simple Holy Physics.

As for hell, you just keep regenerating a body so it can be crisped again and again.

Seriously though, the whole concept seems a bit silly to me. I would suppose that god whould probably give you some sort of "body" with which to interact with heaven or hell.

I hope I get a pornstar body when I die. And not a male on either.
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Old 03-18-2003, 07:28 PM   #3
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Default Re: Re: if there was Haven?

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Originally posted by WWSD

No, really if there were a heaven your soul would experience it through interactions between spiritons (which make up your soul) and heaventinos. It's simple Holy Physics.
:notworthy :notworthy

Didn't you do a whole post on something like this before?
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Old 03-19-2003, 03:33 AM   #4
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Lightbulb Re: if there was Haven?

Quote:
Originally posted by sourdough
if there was Haven? or Hell as some of you believe, how would your soul (if there was such a thing)experience it? you need your physical body to feel,breathe,see, hear,think,when the body dies,you cant obviously feel anything.
I think it is helpful to learn something about the spiritual meaning of spiritual ‘existence’ before running against phantoms.

Beyond that, what you have listed, and which you have classified as physical appearance, there each one can recognize an immaterial spiritual order, which is not to be shown as of an order of physical forces.

Because these ‘things’ are immaterial, they have no location and not time. From this it can be followed, that a heaven, as it is understand by people in the history of religion, has no location and no time. The term heaven was generated in relation to the visible planets above on the sky in the night and its astrological recognizable relations to mental properties as they can be found as character properties of man. These spiritual principles are related p.e. to the Hebrew names of the twelve sons of Jacob (Israel) and were related to the twelve spiritual astrological houses, as they can be recognized aligned around each location.

Alone this origin understanding - that beyond the social imperfection of physical acting men as Saddam Hussein, ancient mistaken Semitic priests of the OT, or violent egocentric power authorities discrediting the inner knowledge and consciousness about a spiritual order of each individual and creature - is of any importance. Nothing else.

If one argues, that there is no spiritual ‘existence’ beyond physical forces, then he must reject: numbers, letters, logic, math, ethic, truth/false-separation, justice/injustice-separation, harmony, poetry, and the laws of algebra in music, because all this ‘things’ can be recognized as immaterial, alocal and timeless.

If one argues, that there no ethic laws ‘exist’, which separate the ethical from the unethical, then no one can argue, that acts against the illusion of humanity or against the illusion of religion have any significance at all. But each arguing, which takes spiritual arguments and not physical laws of forces to proof spiritual recognition wrong is recognizable not fair.

Neither logic nor truth is divisible. Weather there are exist spiritual principles or not.

The spiritual meaning of a heaven is exact this true and fair acting respecting the laws of ethic and harmony, while the origin meaning of the religions about this place of physical forces and of time depending processes called physical world was called ‘hell’. Greeks called it Hades (netherworld), and Judaism ‘down to Egypt’ as an uncomfortable place for a sensitive soul consciousness, knowing about the spiritual principles of heaven. These meaning is mostly lost by the abrahamitic religions, and were mistaken as a social guiding tool of religious authorities to suppress own knowledge of individuals about the spiritual laws of ethic at this uncomfortable place called ‘hell’.

No one can show, that any idea beyond physical forces has an existence. But each one with a spiritual consciousness is able to separate injustice from justice without any external reference from history or library, also if his body is assembled only 3 years ago. Why?

I think there are many missing answers by people, who are denying spirituality as an order existing beyond the physical world of atoms an forces, and no one of them could ever show, what from all his body atoms - existing already prior to his birth - is more than a made dynamic biological robot machine (?).

Why should one care about such robots?

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Old 03-19-2003, 03:49 AM   #5
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Heaven depends on the religion in question.

To the islamic, heaven is in the eye of the horny desert dweller. Read and find out why.

To the christians, heaven is in the eye of the greedy and corrupt individual.

Just see what each religion specifies as heaven, and you will know what you need and what to expect. Personally to me, from a sociological perspective, they merely reflect the wishes and lives of the people who wrote whatever particular religious tome. To me, islamic heaven reminds me of a super target(fresh meat and fruit, rivers of wine...etc...I'm sorry, but you can achieve that heaven on earth, it's just down the corner. However if you grew up hungry and dirty in a desert with no posessions, sure it's heaven), minus virgins and the like. Christian heaven reminds me of those gated communities. Only with precious metal streets and the like.

Both are silly.
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Old 03-19-2003, 05:42 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by keyser_soze
Heaven depends on the religion in question.
No. Because a religion is a fiction without any reality, it can’t depend on it seriously.

Quote:
To the islamic, heaven is in the eye of the horny desert dweller. Read and find out why.
No. Islam, as also an Islamic, is a fiction of no reality. There a are only men and a reality, which can be find.

Quote:
To the christians, heaven is in the eye of the greedy and corrupt individual.
Who cares about fictions? Only that, what has a reality is of any relevance.

Quote:
Just see what each religion specifies as heaven, and you will know what you need and what to expect.
If one specifies something, it is his specifying. If this is against the rules of reason, it is of no value for others. Values are only to be recognized, but not to be specified by authorities.

Quote:
Personally to me, from a sociological perspective, they merely reflect the wishes and lives of the people who wrote whatever particular religious tome. To me, islamic heaven reminds me of a super target(fresh meat and fruit, rivers of wine...etc...I'm sorry, but you can achieve that heaven on earth, it's just down the corner. However if you grew up hungry and dirty in a desert with no posessions, sure it's heaven), minus virgins and the like. Christian heaven reminds me of those gated communities. Only with precious metal streets and the like.

Both are silly.
Yes, and it is your perspective from a sociological point of view. But religion has in origin no social meaning. Social elements are only taken allegorically to color the immaterial dimension of spirituality. Spirituality deals with the origin reason of spiritual quality and has a diametric target as a social quality to be recognized. It is very foolish to take the spiritual allegories of religious myths in a social manner of this world.

If one is aware of a scenario, which is described above, I think this should be taken as a reality to understand its reason. No idea or theory can replace reality. But instead realizing the (dramatic) reality, I see only a running to phantoms (‘heaven’) like heaven and hell, avoiding the own reality (‘hell’), or discrediting these symbols as fiction. Both don’t help to understand why there are real sorrow in this world, which not can be related ever by physical or social causal effects.

The allegories of heaven and hell are created through ancient myths, to recognize the different properties of the worlds of social and spiritual consciousness. Some are hungry and can be satisfied by food. Some are allegorically 'hungry', and are searching for satisfaction (p.e. love) of their empty soul consciuosness, what food never can do.

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Old 03-19-2003, 06:15 AM   #7
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Default Re: Re: if there was Haven?

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Originally posted by Volker.Doormann
If one argues, that there is no spiritual ‘existence’ beyond physical forces, then he must reject: numbers, letters, logic, math, ethic, truth/false-separation, justice/injustice-separation, harmony, poetry, and the laws of algebra in music, because all this ‘things’ can be recognized as immaterial, alocal and timeless.
Numbers and letters are spiritual? I thought they were labels for abstract ideas.
FYI, atheists are not the one claiming heaven/hell is physical. You may want to give this speech to fellow christians who constantly tell us hell is a physical realm with fire and and where you feel pain. You may want to change Revelation's mentioning of a lake of fire. You may want to change the OT where people in hell beg to have god "cool their tongue". You may want to tell your fellow Christians that religion is fiction without reality (I thought that's what fiction means in the first place). You may want to run real fast once you tell them, because I don't think they would be too happy. I know Muslims, and yes, they do believe that physical virgins await them in heaven. I know many more Christians, and although they do not all agree on what heaven will be like, many of them believe it is physical and that they will live in houses and there will be pearly gates, and harps, and thrones, and rivers, etc...
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Old 03-19-2003, 06:36 AM   #8
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To describe something in the world, one need not necessarily believe in it volker. This you should readily understand already. To ignore the social construction and maitenance of a religion is tantamount to sticking your head in the sand and hoping it goes away. I don't personally believe in any gods, but that does not mean that I do not study or try to learn about them. In fact I find them quite amusing. You need to relax some, I would suggest a pint to lighten your mood. You don't need to see the religious as enemies...they provide a comedy break at the least. True they are dangerous, but only in groups.
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Old 03-19-2003, 06:58 AM   #9
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I also feel that the creation myth implies a physical heaven. God created it with earth. He physically "separated" the two by the physical "firmament" (sky, or water above the earth).
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Old 03-19-2003, 07:53 AM   #10
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Default Re: Re: Re: if there was Haven?

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Originally posted by Hawkingfan
Numbers and letters are spiritual? I thought they were labels for abstract ideas.
AFAIK physical forces can’t prove them. The label is not the letter and not the number itself. If a number were an abstract idea, then there would be a lot of different ideas with different ratios between numbers. But this is not. Each one, who is studying numbers and their relations do recognize the very same truth. It is the number, which is to be recognized as a truth, it is not the brain, which is creating a number as an idea.

Quote:

FYI, atheists are not the one claiming heaven/hell is physical. You may want to give this speech to fellow christians who constantly tell us hell is a physical realm with fire and and where you feel pain. You may want to change Revelation's mentioning of a lake of fire. You may want to change the OT where people in hell beg to have god "cool their tongue". You may want to tell your fellow Christians that religion is fiction without reality (I thought that's what fiction means in the first place). You may want to run real fast once you tell them, because I don't think they would be too happy. I know Muslims, and yes, they do believe that physical virgins await them in heaven. I know many more Christians, and although they do not all agree on what heaven will be like, many of them believe it is physical and that they will live in houses and there will be pearly gates, and harps, and thrones, and rivers, etc...
I think it is worthless to discuss fictions. I think only that what is is of any relevance.

Atheists are happy to refer on spiritual tools as I have shown, but they denying non-physical existence without any argument. I can't see any reasonable basis in this position. I think it is not of any importance what atheists believes, but what the reality and truth of their argumentation is. What is the origin of logic, math, ethic, etc. ?

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