Freethought & Rationalism Archive

General Zod · 01-11-2002, 01:30 PM

Do I hear "voices"? Yes. When I think things to myself, I "think words". I have yet to hear anything "speaking" in my mind that I didn't tell it to say.

Mageth · 01-11-2002, 01:34 PM

Service is voluntary; slavery is not. A significant distinction, no?

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]

Foxhole Atheist · 01-11-2002, 02:46 PM

There is absolutely no voice in my head unless my lips move. Thoughts, yes. Voice(s), no.

HelenM · 01-11-2002, 02:48 PM

Weeell...implicitly that passage I quoted was about people voluntarily choosing to be slaves of righteousness. But then, as I said, it presents people as slaves regardless...all that changes is what they are enslaved to.

So that's different from going from freedom to being enslaved.

Still though, theoretically someone might choose to do that - if they had a compelling enough reason to do it.

Realistically, isn't addiction a form of slavery that is at least partially 'chosen'? At least in the first place?

What do you think?

love
Helen

Mageth · 01-11-2002, 03:10 PM

Well, if god created a system where on one hand you have slavery, but you're free to choose to switch to another form of slavery, it all comes out slavery to me. No matter what you do, you're a slave. Not much real choice there, eh?

Eudaimonist · 01-11-2002, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaliet:
I dont hear voices in my head. Maybe I am the only one?
Do you guys hear voices in your heads?
Is a thought a voice?

I thought everyone experienced internal dialogue. I'm surprised that anyone wouldn't.

I sometimes think with my mental voice, though not always. I can also "see" two or three dimensional imaginary objects as ghostly images, and even rotate them or manipulate them. However, my intuition operates mostly beneath the surface of consciousness, and much more quickly than that internal voice.

Have you ever listened to a catchy tune, and then heard it playing inside your mind after the actual music has stopped? It's a very similar thing, except that I have much more control over that internal voice.

I have never heard a voice in my mind that wasn't my own and under my control.

Asha'man · 01-11-2002, 06:38 PM

For a short time, when I was trying to keep a belief in a god, I speculated that he had no power in the physical world, but could still speak to people's minds. That would explain why evil was everywhere, but people could still find some comfort in belief.

(I have since rejected this speculation, and decided there is no supernatural influence on the world I live in.)

excreationist · 01-11-2002, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rimstalker:
...Seriously, I can recall, ever since childhood, occasionally hearing someone say my name when no one was around. Usually, this happens when I start to nod off.

It sounds like God had great things planned for you, but you just didn't know it.
See <a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1+Samuel+3:3-10&version=NIV&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=en glish" target="_blank">1 Samuel 3:3-10</a>:

Quote:

The lamp of God had not yet gone out, and Samuel was lying down in the temple of the LORD, where the ark of God was. Then the LORD called Samuel. Samuel answered, "Here I am."
And he ran to Eli and said, "Here I am; you called me." But Eli said, "I did not call; go back and lie down." So he went and lay down.
Again the LORD called, "Samuel!" And Samuel got up and went to Eli and said, "Here I am; you called me." "My son," Eli said, "I did not call; go back and lie down."
Now Samuel did not yet know the LORD: The word of the LORD had not yet been revealed to him.
The LORD called Samuel a third time, and Samuel got up and went to Eli and said, "Here I am; you called me." Then Eli realized that the LORD was calling the boy.
So Eli told Samuel, "Go and lie down, and if he calls you, say, `Speak, LORD, for your servant is listening.'" So Samuel went and lay down in his place.
The LORD came and stood there, calling as at the other times, "Samuel! Samuel!" Then Samuel said, "Speak, for your servant is listening."

rainbow walking · 01-11-2002, 07:50 PM

Quote:

jaliet: I had a lively debate with Rainbow Walking and he said we all hear voices in our heads.
He insisted and what he said is pasted here:

rw: ...Just ask any number of people on this forum if they think within themselves with what they perceive to be a voice. It�s a universal constant so it is testable. Yet it isn�t verifiable sensually. Everyone indulges it yet no one can prove it or even prove it is their own personal voice. Where does it come from?

jaliet: Personally do not agree. I dont hear voices in my head. Maybe I am the only one?
Do you guys hear voices in your heads?
Is a thought a voice?

rw: Maybe you really don�t have an internal voice. This would be impossible to prove either way so I must take your word for it. I suspect when you asked, �Is a thought a voice?� that you are on the right track but maybe just referring to your thoughts as the voice to which I am referring.

It might be more cogent to say your thoughts have a voice. What I mean is that you express your thoughts internally using a linguistic mode of expression giving the appearance of talking to yourself within your own mind. This is the voice I was referring to and not some foreign voice mysteriously inserted to control or manipulate you.

The reason I mentioned being sure it is your voice has to do with the entire prospect of empirical perceptions and relying on ones senses to determine the truth value of all phenomenon.

Let�s say that hypothetically you genuinely have no idea what I and others are talking about. You simply do not express your thoughts in this manner. Additionally let�s assume you are an extreme skeptic and demand PROOF of this voice. Suddenly we find ourselves in a unique situation where your atheist peers are all claiming this voice is real but none of them actually being able to prove it to you. You will likely argue that we are committing the ad populum fallacy when we all claim to experience this phenomenon.

(The same fallacy the theist is accused of committing when he points out the sheer numbers of believers in the world as evidence for the validity of his claims)

Where is our evidence outside of our subjective claim? By which of our senses do we PERCIEVE this voice? Indeed, how do we know this voice is a product of our own personal thoughts?

This is the paradox for the skeptic who holds to a naturalistic epistemology. There are phenomenon that defy perceptual definition yet almost everyone unanimously agrees they experience this phenomenon.

Now you should be seeing the parallel to the theist who claims to have experienced certain phenomenon that is subjective and cannot be proven but was experienced none-the-less.
In the above hypothetical you might be tempted to begin labeling everyone as irrational and illogical fanatics because they claim to experience something you do not, yet have no way to prove the experience other than to just point out the almost universal aspect of it.

That almost everyone EXPERIENCES this phenomenon of an internal voice is accepted without question. How this voice is experienced is another question altogether. Since practically everyone also agrees that it is not perceived by their sense of hearing most end up relegating it to the imagination. This opens up another Pandora�s Box.

The point is, how do you justify condemning a theist for claiming to have experienced something he cannot prove when you indulge in the same on a daily basis?

World's Youngest Atheist · 01-11-2002, 10:56 PM

I often experience internal dialogue with a person not my own, and yet it is also me. Know what I mean?

For example, on the morning of September 11th(

) I spent several hours in bed debating with myself whether I should get up or not. One side of my brain said to get up, slackass, in an awake, alert kinda voice, another whinged in a half-asleep groan. And yet they were both me. Eventually I got up, and realised when I switched on the radio that I should've got up a lot earlier on that particular day.

I am reminded of the novel "The China Coin" by Allan Baille. Towards the middle, the character fights with herself over what to do after losing her mother. (She says to her other half "Alright, alright! Shut up!")
There is no indication that this is dialogue, but you immeaditely know what is going on.

- World's Youngest "The voices are telling me to clean the guns again" Atheist

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: World's Youngest Athiest ]

01-11-2002, 01:34 PM	#22
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Service is voluntary; slavery is not. A significant distinction, no? [ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

01-11-2002, 10:56 PM	#30
World's Youngest Atheist Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 79	I often experience internal dialogue with a person not my own, and yet it is also me. Know what I mean? For example, on the morning of September 11th( ) I spent several hours in bed debating with myself whether I should get up or not. One side of my brain said to get up, slackass, in an awake, alert kinda voice, another whinged in a half-asleep groan. And yet they were both me. Eventually I got up, and realised when I switched on the radio that I should've got up a lot earlier on that particular day. I am reminded of the novel "The China Coin" by Allan Baille. Towards the middle, the character fights with herself over what to do after losing her mother. (She says to her other half "Alright, alright! Shut up!") There is no indication that this is dialogue, but you immeaditely know what is going on. - World's Youngest "The voices are telling me to clean the guns again" Atheist [ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: World's Youngest Athiest ]</p>

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01-11-2002, 01:30 PM	#21
General Zod Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Mississippi Posts: 127	Do I hear "voices"? Yes. When I think things to myself, I "think words". I have yet to hear anything "speaking" in my mind that I didn't tell it to say.

01-11-2002, 02:46 PM	#23
Foxhole Atheist Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Batavia, Ohio USA Posts: 180	There is absolutely no voice in my head unless my lips move. Thoughts, yes. Voice(s), no.

01-11-2002, 02:48 PM	#24
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	Weeell...implicitly that passage I quoted was about people voluntarily choosing to be slaves of righteousness. But then, as I said, it presents people as slaves regardless...all that changes is what they are enslaved to. So that's different from going from freedom to being enslaved. Still though, theoretically someone might choose to do that - if they had a compelling enough reason to do it. Realistically, isn't addiction a form of slavery that is at least partially 'chosen'? At least in the first place? What do you think? love Helen

01-11-2002, 03:10 PM	#25
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Well, if god created a system where on one hand you have slavery, but you're free to choose to switch to another form of slavery, it all comes out slavery to me. No matter what you do, you're a slave. Not much real choice there, eh?

01-11-2002, 06:38 PM	#27
Asha'man Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: southeast Posts: 2,526	For a short time, when I was trying to keep a belief in a god, I speculated that he had no power in the physical world, but could still speak to people's minds. That would explain why evil was everywhere, but people could still find some comfort in belief. (I have since rejected this speculation, and decided there is no supernatural influence on the world I live in.)

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