Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ted Hoffman · 01-11-2002, 03:31 AM

I had a lively debate with Rainbow Walking and he said we all hear voices in our heads.
He insisted and what he said is pasted here:

Quote:

rw: ...Just ask any number of people on this forum if they think within themselves with what they perceive to be a voice. It’s a universal constant so it is testable. Yet it isn’t verifiable sensually. Everyone indulges it yet no one can prove it or even prove it is their own personal voice. Where does it come from?

Personally do not agree. I dont hear voices in my head. Maybe I am the only one?
Do you guys hear voices in your heads?
Is a thought a voice?

Amen-Moses · 01-11-2002, 04:13 AM

There is an ongoing internal dialogue within the brain and in some cases this dialogue can be heard as a "voice". For example when you are angry with yourself for doing something stupid the "voice" can take on a character like that of your mother or wife, it is a way of projecting our self frustrations onto an external source.

I have no doubt that this internal dialogue (which most of us probably call thinking) is mistaken by many people to have an actual external source.

Interestingly the internal dialogue can become vocalised, for example when you are deeply concentrating on some physical task the dialogue can slip out so that you are actually telling yourself what to do, this is probably because the vocal chords and ear connections are made with the brain at a lower level than the internal dialogue paths so it is sort of like using a short cut.

People with severe mental handicaps (and very young children) can often be heard continuously mumbling to themselves, this is again vocalising the internal dialogue.

The path of learning new skills follows an approach that might indicate how the internal dialogues develops, i.e.

1) Shown how to do it.

2) Told how to do it whilst attempting it yourself.

3) Telling yourself how to do it whilst attempting it.

4) Doing it with internal dialogue.

5) Continuing 4 until the skill becomes learned and the internal dialogue can then be switched off.

For example when learning to drive a car you will actually tell yourself what gear you should be in or repeat a mantra of "Mirror, Indicator, Look over Shoulder, Mirror, Pull out" until you are sufficiently comfortable that the dialogue can become internal, after many years the internal dialogue is not required and these actions become almost instinctive until you miss one and then that little voice comes back with a vengeance (in my case sounding like my mother) "You forgot to look in your mirror you stupid idiot!".

Hope that helps.

Amen-Moses

ecco · 01-11-2002, 05:33 AM

Does talking to myself (internally and occasionally verbally) count? I do and I wouldn't be surprised if everyone does. But the voice I hear is my own, not my mother's, certainly not god's. If I ever started to hear a voice that wasn't my own, I would promptly check into the nearest mental hospital. This is not intended to be sarcastic. I would do it out of self preservation. A lot of people who have "heard voices" have gone on to do some really awful things.

excreationist · 01-11-2002, 05:53 AM

In that thread that you quoted, I'm pretty sure that I replied to rainbow walking about my explanation for this... could you give a link to that thread? (I'm not sure which one it was)

On a TV show I watched called "the animal mind" they had an autistic woman who said that she never thought using language - she used pictures instead. She was quite articulate. I'm pretty skeptical about that.
Anyway, when you think using language, you are speaking in your head - unless you are thinking out loud. (like young kids can)

Usually the voice commentates our reasoning processes so that we can get a better idea of what we are thinking about. But sometimes, like in the case of schizophrenics (some of them at least (?)), their spoken thoughts are fragmented and they are so disorganized that they don't think those thoughts are theirs. If they are religious they might think God or and angel or a demon is speaking to them. Or maybe they might think that the government or aliens are sending them messages.

ecco:
That's what most of us are talking about - hearing a voice means just hearing ourselves commentate on what's going on. (Rather than the voice being God, etc)

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: excreationist ]</p>

HelenM · 01-11-2002, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaliet:
<strong>Is a thought a voice?</strong>

That's what I'd mean if I said I heard voices in my head. But I'd rather say I 'talk to myself in my head'. So it's my own voice.

I don't hear anything I perceive as not originated by me

I'm not sure what rainbow walking meant. Maybe he can clarify.

love
Helen

Mageth · 01-11-2002, 06:24 AM

Whenever someone speaks to me, or I listen to the radio or TV, I hear voices in my head. (Where the hell else would I hear them - in my feet?)

Born Free · 01-11-2002, 06:38 AM

I think excreationist sums it up very well, I am thinking that rainbow walking has confused thoughts with voices. Perhaps he could elaborate on this???

MOJO-JOJO · 01-11-2002, 07:23 AM

This comports with the christian credo.... "We are Borg....you will be assimilated...resistance is futile."

I, for one, will continue to fight the collective.

GunnerJ · 01-11-2002, 07:31 AM

Mostly, the voices in my head are snoring.

Seriously, I can recall, ever since childhood, occasionally hearing someone say my name when no one was around. Usually, this happens when I start to nod off.

Amen-Moses · 01-11-2002, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ecco:
But the voice I hear is my own, not my mother's, certainly not god's.

Maybe I wasn't quite clear, the "voices" are not heard at all, the only reason it seems to be the same as really hearing something is because regardless of where language comes from, be it reading words, braille, sound or from memory it is processed by the same parts of the brain so is perceived in the same way. When I say "takes on characteristics of my mothers voice" I mean that I process it as if it were my mothers voice, I don't find myself looking over my shoulder to see if she really is there.

I suppose what it boils down to is how we process the content of the thought or sensed message, we can for example whilst reading words written by someone we know automatically place their inflection or accent upon those words and imagine them being spoken to us even though they are coming from a vdu screen or piece of paper (I'm not entirely sure that everyone can do this, it may be limited to those of a more creative/imaginitive bent).

If RW thinks of something and then puts a booming gravelly voice to it during processing then he may very well imagine that the thought came from God, it's a neat way of sidestepping responsibility for your thoughts and deeds I suppose.

Amen-Moses

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

01-11-2002, 04:13 AM	#2
Amen-Moses Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Portsmouth, England Posts: 4,652	There is an ongoing internal dialogue within the brain and in some cases this dialogue can be heard as a "voice". For example when you are angry with yourself for doing something stupid the "voice" can take on a character like that of your mother or wife, it is a way of projecting our self frustrations onto an external source. I have no doubt that this internal dialogue (which most of us probably call thinking) is mistaken by many people to have an actual external source. Interestingly the internal dialogue can become vocalised, for example when you are deeply concentrating on some physical task the dialogue can slip out so that you are actually telling yourself what to do, this is probably because the vocal chords and ear connections are made with the brain at a lower level than the internal dialogue paths so it is sort of like using a short cut. People with severe mental handicaps (and very young children) can often be heard continuously mumbling to themselves, this is again vocalising the internal dialogue. The path of learning new skills follows an approach that might indicate how the internal dialogues develops, i.e. 1) Shown how to do it. 2) Told how to do it whilst attempting it yourself. 3) Telling yourself how to do it whilst attempting it. 4) Doing it with internal dialogue. 5) Continuing 4 until the skill becomes learned and the internal dialogue can then be switched off. For example when learning to drive a car you will actually tell yourself what gear you should be in or repeat a mantra of "Mirror, Indicator, Look over Shoulder, Mirror, Pull out" until you are sufficiently comfortable that the dialogue can become internal, after many years the internal dialogue is not required and these actions become almost instinctive until you miss one and then that little voice comes back with a vengeance (in my case sounding like my mother) "You forgot to look in your mirror you stupid idiot!". Hope that helps. Amen-Moses

01-11-2002, 05:33 AM	#3
ecco Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: SE Posts: 4,845	Does talking to myself (internally and occasionally verbally) count? I do and I wouldn't be surprised if everyone does. But the voice I hear is my own, not my mother's, certainly not god's. If I ever started to hear a voice that wasn't my own, I would promptly check into the nearest mental hospital. This is not intended to be sarcastic. I would do it out of self preservation. A lot of people who have "heard voices" have gone on to do some really awful things.

01-11-2002, 05:53 AM	#4
excreationist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 4,886	In that thread that you quoted, I'm pretty sure that I replied to rainbow walking about my explanation for this... could you give a link to that thread? (I'm not sure which one it was) On a TV show I watched called "the animal mind" they had an autistic woman who said that she never thought using language - she used pictures instead. She was quite articulate. I'm pretty skeptical about that. Anyway, when you think using language, you are speaking in your head - unless you are thinking out loud. (like young kids can) Usually the voice commentates our reasoning processes so that we can get a better idea of what we are thinking about. But sometimes, like in the case of schizophrenics (some of them at least (?)), their spoken thoughts are fragmented and they are so disorganized that they don't think those thoughts are theirs. If they are religious they might think God or and angel or a demon is speaking to them. Or maybe they might think that the government or aliens are sending them messages. ecco: That's what most of us are talking about - hearing a voice means just hearing ourselves commentate on what's going on. (Rather than the voice being God, etc) [ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: excreationist ]</p>

01-11-2002, 06:24 AM	#6
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Whenever someone speaks to me, or I listen to the radio or TV, I hear voices in my head. (Where the hell else would I hear them - in my feet?)

01-11-2002, 06:38 AM	#7
Born Free Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Scotland Posts: 4,177	I think excreationist sums it up very well, I am thinking that rainbow walking has confused thoughts with voices. Perhaps he could elaborate on this???

01-11-2002, 07:23 AM	#8
MOJO-JOJO Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Nashville, USA Posts: 949	This comports with the christian credo.... "We are Borg....you will be assimilated...resistance is futile." I, for one, will continue to fight the collective.

01-11-2002, 07:31 AM	#9
GunnerJ Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: a place where i can list whatever location i want Posts: 4,871	Mostly, the voices in my head are snoring. Seriously, I can recall, ever since childhood, occasionally hearing someone say my name when no one was around. Usually, this happens when I start to nod off.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.