Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The Other Michael · 11-09-2002, 12:29 PM

There's a difference?

cheers,
Michael

11-09-2002, 12:50 PM

How about this theory?

Totalitarianist · 11-09-2002, 12:53 PM

Yawn. You have some beliefs, so what? You are quite free to have and expound them. But I fail to see the point of trying to engage a rational argument having said those beliefs are intrinsic to you and beyond reason. Are you trying to convert us?

Wrong. I said that the conception that onanism is "mental rape" does not owe its existence to reason. I moreover said that when I said that onanism is "mental rape", which was only a passing comment on my conception of onanism, is not very important and we need not pay too much attention to it. If I were talking about the existence of extraterrestrial life on Mars, and I said that I feel that the subject is irksome to the ear, this one wee comment is hardly worthy of debate on the subject of the possible existence of extraterrestrial life on Mars. It is precisely the same in this case. If you feel that the most insignificant comment on a subject is the most worthy of your consideration, I do believe that you will find the whole debating business rather difficult. If that is what you fancy--let it be so, although most of us will be disappointed in you, assuredly. I did say, however, that this belief, that onanism is mental rape, can and ought to be justified.

I nowise said, implicitly or explictly, that I "don't need rationality"; I consider myself a rationalist in the philosophical sense.

Feel free to try, but clearly your beliefs are NOT intrinsic to us, so what would be the point?
Read my original post. And I presented arguments justifying my belief, which you ought to believe in unless you disbelieve in the arguments; and in that case I should like to know why. (In other words, disprove what I have said hitherto.)

Totalitarianist · 11-09-2002, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jagged Little Pill:


I must have missed something... how did we get from masturbation to sex with chickens?

[ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: Jagged Little Pill ]

That they are both not justified insofar as they are a source of pleasure.

Bobby B. · 11-09-2002, 01:22 PM

This is the type of self-rightous priggish thinking that turns pedophiles into priests. They think god and the priestly vow of celibacy will save them from their "tendencies". It doesn't work. What they need is less religion and more therapy, because obviously religion isn't doing it.

Can you give some biblical references (besides Onan spilling his seed)to back up your belief? After reading your post, I looked on the web and found many sites stating what you did, but all were based in Christianity. Otherwise no-one, nowhere advocates repressing masturbation. It is pretty much (as far as I can find) a strictly Christian phonomenon, and then only within some sects.

I do think that we are hardwired to have a sex drive and to get enjoyment from sex. Supressing that drive will usually lead to some type of mental anguish. But having a healthy sexuality (which does include masturbation!) can only be healthy. When I fantasize when masturbating I know I will never meet or be in a position of having sex with the fantasy. It's just that a fantasy, and when I'm done, I pull up my drawers and get back to reality.

Finally - if you don't want to masturbate it's your problem, but maybe a copy of Penthouse and a bottle of baby lotion would help you out. (Unless you're a woman...but you get my drift).

Grrrr.

tronvillain · 11-09-2002, 03:37 PM

Trebaxian Vir:

Quote:

You have always been the true master of the logical fallacy argumentum ad hominem (also, in this case, the "straw man" and argumentum ad populum fallacy).

In other words, you are unable to justify your use of the term "onanism." Now, would you care to actually show how I committed those logical fallacies? No? What a surprise.

Quote:

I must say, your position on this subject is very narrow minded. Choking babies to death is a source of pleasure for some people. I suppose on this account that it is a natural use of one's own hands, because it is, like onanism, a source of pleasure. And yet pleasure is subjective. Considering the absurd possibility that using a part of the human body in a certain way (objective) is the misuse of it because of some subjective sentiment (pleasure), is quite irrational, as proven by the above mentioned example. Of course, rational discussion is one thing you are in the habit of avoiding.

*chuckle* This early in the "discussion", and you have already resorted to comparisons to baby killing.

Anyway, from one of your responses to Oxymoron:

Quote:

You fail to notice that I indicated in the original post that I believe this to be unimportant as concerns the aforesaid question: viz., "Is onanism a misuse of one's organs, and if so, why?" I said this under the impression that people would not comment on my own personal opinion on the matter. This is what I personally believe; this belief owes itself only to the unmovable moral code ingrained into my soul by my fellow creatures, not to reason. Every morality, especially those that we cannot drive out of our hearts, ought to be justified, in my perspective.
Onanism is in my opinion a sort of mental rape, but the question that concerns us for the moment, again, is whether it is a misuse of our sexual organs, is it unnatural and/or immoral, and if so or if not, why? No satisfactory answer has been given so far; but this is forgivable, for it is a peculiar question, a question most people have never been acquainted with.

Is masturbation a "misuse" of our sexual organs? No, since our sexual organs have no inherent purpose. Oh, they have obviously evolved to give us pleasure in order to promote mating and thus to promote sexual reproduction, but we are under no obligation to use them for strictly reproductive purposes, or indeed for sexual purposes at all. Is masturbation unnatural? It would be relatively easy to argue that it is a perfectly natural activity for a primate, but frankly, who cares if it is or not? Is masturbation immoral? Morality is subjective, so whether or not masturbation is immoral depends on the individual making the judgement. Personally, I see nothing immoral about it - it generally brings pleasure while harming no one.

[ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: tronvillain ]

Grizzly · 11-09-2002, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Trebaxian Vir:


That they are both not justified insofar as they are a source of pleasure.

TV,

What is wrong with having pleasure?

Also, are you arguing that bad thoughts will lead to bad deeds? Or are bad thoughts, in and of themselves, bad? If I have "bad" thoughts but never act on them, am I still a moral person?

Grizz

thebeave · 11-09-2002, 05:20 PM

I was watching a comedian on the Comedy Channel talking about masturbation and he said sometimes while he's in the middle of it, his fantasy partner spontaneously changes from, say, Miss March, to his own mother, causing him to quickly abandon the effort. I thought it was funny. I swear to Gawd, though, that one comment ruined my sex life for the next two months, till my mind broke free ("Aw damn it mom, not now, go away! I love ya , but sheesh this is my time")

I hope by relaying that anecodote I didn't ruin anyone's fantasy sex life.

Maybe that's how Trebaxian does it??

[ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: thebeave ]

Yggdrasill · 11-09-2002, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Trebaxian Vir:

No, for masturbation entertains no valuable purpose.

And what has valuable purpose? Everything you create will be no more, everything you do will be forgotten, you will succumb to non-existence and be no more. Mastrubation is as good a hobby as any. It is merely the allocation of time until you die.

excreationist · 11-09-2002, 11:46 PM

Trebaxian Vir:
Onan was a guy in the Bible who had to impregnate his dead brother's widow - but he kept on spilling his semen/"seed" on ground at the last second when he had sex with her... so God killed Onan. (God had also killed that dead brother for some unspecified wickedness.)

So basically Onan failed to fulfil his duty to his dead brother's widow. His sex with her (probably) was consensual. I don't see how what Onan did was "rape".

I don't understand why you talk about Onan and "Onanism"... are you a Christian or a Jew or something?

BTW, what if a person is fantasizing about their hand or a cartoon character or something? Are they still guilty of "rape"?

It's strange that you have shown support for Stalin and his massacres and probably things like slavery but you're against "thought crimes" that don't seem to harm anybody...

Also, I think animals such as dogs can masturbate sometimes... what do you think should be done about them?

I guess it is our sex drives that cause us to fantasize about things and masturbate, etc... what do you think should be done about it? Maybe men could be castrated or something...?

11-09-2002, 05:20 PM	#38
thebeave Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Silicon Valley, CA Posts: 4,183	I was watching a comedian on the Comedy Channel talking about masturbation and he said sometimes while he's in the middle of it, his fantasy partner spontaneously changes from, say, Miss March, to his own mother, causing him to quickly abandon the effort. I thought it was funny. I swear to Gawd, though, that one comment ruined my sex life for the next two months, till my mind broke free ("Aw damn it mom, not now, go away! I love ya , but sheesh this is my time") I hope by relaying that anecodote I didn't ruin anyone's fantasy sex life. Maybe that's how Trebaxian does it?? [ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: thebeave ]</p>

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11-09-2002, 12:29 PM	#31
The Other Michael Honorary Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In the fog of San Francisco Posts: 12,631	There's a difference? cheers, Michael

11-09-2002, 12:50 PM	#32
Jagged Guest Posts: n/a	How about this theory?

11-09-2002, 12:53 PM	#33
Totalitarianist Banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 1,234	Yawn. You have some beliefs, so what? You are quite free to have and expound them. But I fail to see the point of trying to engage a rational argument having said those beliefs are intrinsic to you and beyond reason. Are you trying to convert us? Wrong. I said that the conception that onanism is "mental rape" does not owe its existence to reason. I moreover said that when I said that onanism is "mental rape", which was only a passing comment on my conception of onanism, is not very important and we need not pay too much attention to it. If I were talking about the existence of extraterrestrial life on Mars, and I said that I feel that the subject is irksome to the ear, this one wee comment is hardly worthy of debate on the subject of the possible existence of extraterrestrial life on Mars. It is precisely the same in this case. If you feel that the most insignificant comment on a subject is the most worthy of your consideration, I do believe that you will find the whole debating business rather difficult. If that is what you fancy--let it be so, although most of us will be disappointed in you, assuredly. I did say, however, that this belief, that onanism is mental rape, can and ought to be justified. I nowise said, implicitly or explictly, that I "don't need rationality"; I consider myself a rationalist in the philosophical sense. Feel free to try, but clearly your beliefs are NOT intrinsic to us, so what would be the point? Read my original post. And I presented arguments justifying my belief, which you ought to believe in unless you disbelieve in the arguments; and in that case I should like to know why. (In other words, disprove what I have said hitherto.)

11-09-2002, 01:22 PM	#35
Bobby B. Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 70	This is the type of self-rightous priggish thinking that turns pedophiles into priests. They think god and the priestly vow of celibacy will save them from their "tendencies". It doesn't work. What they need is less religion and more therapy, because obviously religion isn't doing it. Can you give some biblical references (besides Onan spilling his seed)to back up your belief? After reading your post, I looked on the web and found many sites stating what you did, but all were based in Christianity. Otherwise no-one, nowhere advocates repressing masturbation. It is pretty much (as far as I can find) a strictly Christian phonomenon, and then only within some sects. I do think that we are hardwired to have a sex drive and to get enjoyment from sex. Supressing that drive will usually lead to some type of mental anguish. But having a healthy sexuality (which does include masturbation!) can only be healthy. When I fantasize when masturbating I know I will never meet or be in a position of having sex with the fantasy. It's just that a fantasy, and when I'm done, I pull up my drawers and get back to reality. Finally - if you don't want to masturbate it's your problem, but maybe a copy of Penthouse and a bottle of baby lotion would help you out. (Unless you're a woman...but you get my drift). Grrrr.

11-09-2002, 11:46 PM	#40
excreationist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 4,886	Trebaxian Vir: Onan was a guy in the Bible who had to impregnate his dead brother's widow - but he kept on spilling his semen/"seed" on ground at the last second when he had sex with her... so God killed Onan. (God had also killed that dead brother for some unspecified wickedness.) So basically Onan failed to fulfil his duty to his dead brother's widow. His sex with her (probably) was consensual. I don't see how what Onan did was "rape". I don't understand why you talk about Onan and "Onanism"... are you a Christian or a Jew or something? BTW, what if a person is fantasizing about their hand or a cartoon character or something? Are they still guilty of "rape"? It's strange that you have shown support for Stalin and his massacres and probably things like slavery but you're against "thought crimes" that don't seem to harm anybody... Also, I think animals such as dogs can masturbate sometimes... what do you think should be done about them? I guess it is our sex drives that cause us to fantasize about things and masturbate, etc... what do you think should be done about it? Maybe men could be castrated or something...?

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