Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JerryM · 03-31-2003, 09:20 PM

No God had anything to do with 9/11. No Satan had anything to do with it either. Yes, human beings do have free will (for the most part). Sometimes they can act wonderfully good, and sometimes they can do horrific evil. And sometimes even good people can just be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Why is this so hard to accept?

winstonjen · 03-31-2003, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spurly
Winstonjen, I can see how some people would say it was God's fault. However, if God had chosen to do things differently and not give us free will we would be calling him a tyrant and we would resent him completely. We can't have it both ways.

Some of us resent him completely now, especially since he breaks his own word (TM) and never answers prayers (unless it's for something that's a given, like the sun rising in the morning).

Ennazus · 04-01-2003, 07:36 AM

I just don't understand any of the "free will" arguments. Does God have free will, too? Why didn't he show himself on 9/11? Why didn't he stick his hand down from the clouds and stop those planes? He's all powerful, isn't he? Did he just sit up there clicking his tongue and waving his finger at the planes? Why didn't he DO something? He can part seas and turn water into wine, but he can't stop a plane!? I just do not understand the Christian side of ANY of these arguments, I guess. Everytime I read Christian responses to questions as these, I wonder if these people are for REAL! Free will?? That's God's excuse for everything, isn't it??

Philosoft · 04-01-2003, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by spurly
Winstonjen, I can see how some people would say it was God's fault. However, if God had chosen to do things differently and not give us free will we would be calling him a tyrant and we would resent him completely. We can't have it both ways.

This makes no sense. What would provoke a determined being to call his determiner a "tyrant"?

Quote:

Giving us free will was the most loving thing God could do. Now the choice is up to us - you and me.

This is a completely biased judgement. If we didn't have free will, by what standard (and with what ability) could we call God's action non-loving?

Biff the unclean · 04-01-2003, 08:48 AM

Spurly: From the very beginning of time with the first people God created he gave them free will. He created them to pour out all of his love on them and be loved them. But he gave them a choice.

Magus55: God gave man free will at the creation of Adam and Even in the Garden by putting the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in there. That triggered free will by giving Adam and Eve the ability to choose between obeying God or disobeying. Of course, they used that free will to disobey and everything went downhill from there.

So now my question to the two of you is 'are you spewing this bullshite because you want to deceive me or because someone deceived you?

No where in the bible does God give man free will. No where in the bible does God honor mans free will.

In the story you site Magus, God forbids man to have free will. There can be no free will without the knowledge of good and evil. If you don't know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil you cannot make a choice. You can pick one or the other but that would not be a choice because they would be indiscernible from one another. Anything you picked would be arbitrary. You could not decide using your free will to cast your lot in with evil because you had no idea what evil was. You could not choose to obey God because that was the "good" thing to do for the obvious reason that you had no idea what "good" meant. What ever you did would be, by necessity, an arbitrary act expressing no "will" at all. The bible says that God created man as mindless robots.

The bible says that God punished man, cursed the very Earth, when man gained free will. It says that God punished man for exercising his free will at one point murdering almost every living creature on the planet because man had free will. The bible says that God saddled man with innumerable laws--each of which curtailed free will.
No where does Jesus honor free will, or any freedom for that matter. No where is independent thought honored. The single consistent message in the bible is that you should abandon free will in favor of God.

So don't hand me that free will crap, you aren't fooling anyone.

braces_for_impact · 04-01-2003, 09:33 AM

Seems to me another pathetic attept to remove the burden of responsibility from this supposed god and place it on man. Well, man is responsible. But how far are people willing to go to rationalize thier own contradictory beliefs? It's all very simple. It has been laid out for you so many times on this board I cannot count them. We have had this discussion before. You can call it determism vs. free will, you can call it free will vs. omniscience, you can call it whatever you want.

The point is, you goofy theists have been soundly demonstrated to be in astounding error when it comes to believing in this warm fuzzy loving god who someow coexists with free will. You accept that people die and and are tortured forever in some little game by your deity of choice. You wave away any allegations of god that doesn't happen to match you're precious little fantasy world view. I have had it with this utterly uncompassionate and worthless religion of Christianity which obviously hardens the hearts of it's followers, destroys their self esteem, making them worthless without the love of some forsaken sky pixie. A god that love us all so much, but won't lift a finger to help, otherwise his precious 'free will' would be shattered.

Divine plan? My ass. A six year old could come up with a better one. Hell a six year old with cerebal palsy could do it. Look at yourself! Scroll up and see what you are saying! Look at how you make every excuse for this god, because admitting that it doesn't make logical sense would force you to admit that you've been fooled. You were wrong. Instead you divulge in a passtime known as apologetics . Look at that word. It doesn't say "defense of Christianity", or "theistic rationalization". It's you basically apologizing or excusing horrible behavior.

I know I'm ranting, but screw it. I'm full throttle tired of this disgusting display of "god's love" and especially "Christian love". It's a disgrace to the word. Cheaply given, and worth about as much as the paper the bible is printed on.

/rant mode off

Biff the unclean · 04-01-2003, 10:06 AM

Magus 55: Well, in our opinion, with no God the evil in the world would self destruct itself and take over, in which case civilization probably wouldn't have survived long enough to get to 9/11.
Worst than it has?
But assuming it did survive up until that point, I'd say there would be less unity in the world from it,
Unity in the world??????
We are talking about 911 here. 911 when one group of devout believers in God murders thousands of people for having a different belief in the same God. Are you insane?
more destraught families committing suicide
Except Atheists don't commit suicide any more often than Theists do.
or losing touch with reality due to lack of comfort.
Belief in Gods is complete loss of touch with reality.
Less people would have lived etc.
It was firemen who saved people and the religious who killed them. Wouldn't that mean that God was the killer?
Don't really know, since I don't believe in a world where God doesn't exist, can't really speculate what it would be like without Him. Hell on earth probably.
But you can speculate quite easily about what it would be like.
You keep saying that if God saved one person he'd have to save everybody, and he takes no action because he honors free will.
Now read the following carefully and think about it before you reply.
You are describing a God who takes no action. Then you are ascribing reasons to this God which excuse him from taking any action whatsoever.
You are describing exactly the same world as one without a God.

Magus55 · 04-01-2003, 10:19 AM

Quote:

You are describing exactly the same world as one without a God.

No I'm not. You assume God isn't present when all these evil actions are carried out by humans just because He doesn't stop them.

I'm really starting to think atheists don't like having Free will, since you want God to remove free will by stopping all the choices we humans choose to make.

braces_for_impact · 04-01-2003, 10:26 AM

This argument that god cannot intercede or free will does not exist is so obviously silly, even by biblical accounts. I mean look at the bible, if you believe the bible is true, then you cannot deny this:

How many miracles did the Israelites see on their exodus from egypt? All those plagues, the red sea parting, etc. And the first chance they get, they stop and worship a golden calf! After all of that! God interceded on their behalf no less than 11 times, and spoke through his prophet Moses. And still these israelites worshipped the wrong god!

Hello? /knock knock

Is anyone in there?

Biff the unclean · 04-01-2003, 10:46 AM

I really think that you haven't read the bible or you would know that there isn't one gawrddamned thing in it that supports "free will."
You keep describing your reasons why you think God doesn't do anything. Then you look at nothing and say isn't it wonderful! That's God not doing anything. Isn't God wonderful, he loves and honors us so much that he takes absolutely no actions at all.

Then you take a book of mythology from the bronze age and say isn't it wonderful God is doing this that and the other thing.

And that's how you prove to us that God is a fictional character.
The God character in the novel "The Bible" takes constant and dramatic actions. He's completely "hands on."

In the real world�nothing.

You yammer on about "free will" because you forget about the Action God in the Bible. You are so busy trying to come up with an excuse for why God does absolutely nothing in the real world that you are willing to sacrifice the Bible God.

God exists only in the Bible. The reason he does nothing in the real world is because he is powerless to do anything. He is fictional. He doesn't stop the actions of humans because he can't. In the novel he's a character in he stopped the actions of humans all the time. He has no effect on the real world because he isn't real.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-31-2003, 09:20 PM	#21
JerryM Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO. Posts: 1,100	No God had anything to do with 9/11. No Satan had anything to do with it either. Yes, human beings do have free will (for the most part). Sometimes they can act wonderfully good, and sometimes they can do horrific evil. And sometimes even good people can just be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Why is this so hard to accept?

04-01-2003, 07:36 AM	#23
Ennazus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Chicago 'burbs Posts: 1,242	I just don't understand any of the "free will" arguments. Does God have free will, too? Why didn't he show himself on 9/11? Why didn't he stick his hand down from the clouds and stop those planes? He's all powerful, isn't he? Did he just sit up there clicking his tongue and waving his finger at the planes? Why didn't he DO something? He can part seas and turn water into wine, but he can't stop a plane!? I just do not understand the Christian side of ANY of these arguments, I guess. Everytime I read Christian responses to questions as these, I wonder if these people are for REAL! Free will?? That's God's excuse for everything, isn't it??

04-01-2003, 08:48 AM	#25
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Spurly: From the very beginning of time with the first people God created he gave them free will. He created them to pour out all of his love on them and be loved them. But he gave them a choice. Magus55: God gave man free will at the creation of Adam and Even in the Garden by putting the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in there. That triggered free will by giving Adam and Eve the ability to choose between obeying God or disobeying. Of course, they used that free will to disobey and everything went downhill from there. So now my question to the two of you is 'are you spewing this bullshite because you want to deceive me or because someone deceived you? No where in the bible does God give man free will. No where in the bible does God honor mans free will. In the story you site Magus, God forbids man to have free will. There can be no free will without the knowledge of good and evil. If you don't know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil you cannot make a choice. You can pick one or the other but that would not be a choice because they would be indiscernible from one another. Anything you picked would be arbitrary. You could not decide using your free will to cast your lot in with evil because you had no idea what evil was. You could not choose to obey God because that was the "good" thing to do for the obvious reason that you had no idea what "good" meant. What ever you did would be, by necessity, an arbitrary act expressing no "will" at all. The bible says that God created man as mindless robots. The bible says that God punished man, cursed the very Earth, when man gained free will. It says that God punished man for exercising his free will at one point murdering almost every living creature on the planet because man had free will. The bible says that God saddled man with innumerable laws--each of which curtailed free will. No where does Jesus honor free will, or any freedom for that matter. No where is independent thought honored. The single consistent message in the bible is that you should abandon free will in favor of God. So don't hand me that free will crap, you aren't fooling anyone.

04-01-2003, 09:33 AM	#26
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	Seems to me another pathetic attept to remove the burden of responsibility from this supposed god and place it on man. Well, man is responsible. But how far are people willing to go to rationalize thier own contradictory beliefs? It's all very simple. It has been laid out for you so many times on this board I cannot count them. We have had this discussion before. You can call it determism vs. free will, you can call it free will vs. omniscience, you can call it whatever you want. The point is, you goofy theists have been soundly demonstrated to be in astounding error when it comes to believing in this warm fuzzy loving god who someow coexists with free will. You accept that people die and and are tortured forever in some little game by your deity of choice. You wave away any allegations of god that doesn't happen to match you're precious little fantasy world view. I have had it with this utterly uncompassionate and worthless religion of Christianity which obviously hardens the hearts of it's followers, destroys their self esteem, making them worthless without the love of some forsaken sky pixie. A god that love us all so much, but won't lift a finger to help, otherwise his precious 'free will' would be shattered. Divine plan? My ass. A six year old could come up with a better one. Hell a six year old with cerebal palsy could do it. Look at yourself! Scroll up and see what you are saying! Look at how you make every excuse for this god, because admitting that it doesn't make logical sense would force you to admit that you've been fooled. You were wrong. Instead you divulge in a passtime known as apologetics . Look at that word. It doesn't say "defense of Christianity", or "theistic rationalization". It's you basically apologizing or excusing horrible behavior. I know I'm ranting, but screw it. I'm full throttle tired of this disgusting display of "god's love" and especially "Christian love". It's a disgrace to the word. Cheaply given, and worth about as much as the paper the bible is printed on. /rant mode off

04-01-2003, 10:06 AM	#27
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Magus 55: Well, in our opinion, with no God the evil in the world would self destruct itself and take over, in which case civilization probably wouldn't have survived long enough to get to 9/11. Worst than it has? But assuming it did survive up until that point, I'd say there would be less unity in the world from it, Unity in the world?????? We are talking about 911 here. 911 when one group of devout believers in God murders thousands of people for having a different belief in the same God. Are you insane? more destraught families committing suicide Except Atheists don't commit suicide any more often than Theists do. or losing touch with reality due to lack of comfort. Belief in Gods is complete loss of touch with reality. Less people would have lived etc. It was firemen who saved people and the religious who killed them. Wouldn't that mean that God was the killer? Don't really know, since I don't believe in a world where God doesn't exist, can't really speculate what it would be like without Him. Hell on earth probably. But you can speculate quite easily about what it would be like. You keep saying that if God saved one person he'd have to save everybody, and he takes no action because he honors free will. Now read the following carefully and think about it before you reply. You are describing a God who takes no action. Then you are ascribing reasons to this God which excuse him from taking any action whatsoever. You are describing exactly the same world as one without a God.

04-01-2003, 10:26 AM	#29
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	This argument that god cannot intercede or free will does not exist is so obviously silly, even by biblical accounts. I mean look at the bible, if you believe the bible is true, then you cannot deny this: How many miracles did the Israelites see on their exodus from egypt? All those plagues, the red sea parting, etc. And the first chance they get, they stop and worship a golden calf! After all of that! God interceded on their behalf no less than 11 times, and spoke through his prophet Moses. And still these israelites worshipped the wrong god! Hello? /knock knock Is anyone in there?

04-01-2003, 10:46 AM	#30
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	I really think that you haven't read the bible or you would know that there isn't one gawrddamned thing in it that supports "free will." You keep describing your reasons why you think God doesn't do anything. Then you look at nothing and say isn't it wonderful! That's God not doing anything. Isn't God wonderful, he loves and honors us so much that he takes absolutely no actions at all. Then you take a book of mythology from the bronze age and say isn't it wonderful God is doing this that and the other thing. And that's how you prove to us that God is a fictional character. The God character in the novel "The Bible" takes constant and dramatic actions. He's completely "hands on." In the real world�nothing. You yammer on about "free will" because you forget about the Action God in the Bible. You are so busy trying to come up with an excuse for why God does absolutely nothing in the real world that you are willing to sacrifice the Bible God. God exists only in the Bible. The reason he does nothing in the real world is because he is powerless to do anything. He is fictional. He doesn't stop the actions of humans because he can't. In the novel he's a character in he stopped the actions of humans all the time. He has no effect on the real world because he isn't real.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.