Radorth

Heh heh.

God to Adam:

"Would you like to have free will during your stay on the earth?"

"What are my options?" asked Adam.

"Well the angels are worried you might do stupid things, and suggested I make little pre-programmed robots who do whatever I want automatically. But then of course, you would never know the joy of serving and loving me and your fellow humans of your own free will. I want you to be like me, autonomous, free and have your own power, to be able to dream and build as I have. I want you to experience the sorrow and lack which comes from disobedience and the joy and abundance I have for you, that come by simple obedience. You will never know these things, or feel you have a part to play unless I make you like myself."

Of course God didn't ask us. Being God he just did it because he knew it was right, and because he wanted us to be like himself, and to fellowship on a level with himself, to create an abundance of good things by obedience or misery by disobedience. And even when we disobeyed, or even if he did not do everything as perfectly as we might imagine, he still found a way to make it happen for all but the incorrigible cynic, because he is simply good.

It isn't good enough to say "Well he ought to come down and fix things if he's so good." Well he will, but then it will be too late to excercise our will freely, or obey him freely. And he has shown himself in powerful ways. He sent his law and his prophets, then his Christ, the Holy Spirit, and apostles to work miracles (which still occur if you want to find out). He gives wonderful gifts to those who are completely sold out, and even to some who aren't. You don't believe it? So what. He only rewards those who diligently seek him, and I don't blame him for that because to do give his power to the disobedient and unwise would be foolish indeed.

Rad

Lobstrosity

Yeah, you don't read me correctly. I guess you could try reading it again, but that's probably pretty pointless.

Cthulhu

That's truly a touching little scene you've painted for us, Rad.

Tell me, what episode of Veggie Tales did you filch it from?


So God did it because it was right, and it was right because God did it.

Round and round he goes, when he'll stop circular reasoning, nobody knows.

Then why didn't he make us like himself? Why didn't he make us "perfect" little gods and goddesses? Why would a perfect deity purposefully create imperfect creations if his ultimate goal was perfection?

If God was attempting to make us like himself, than why would he even concern himself with obedience and disobedience? Does God have a desire to disobey himself? If we were created like him, then we would have no desire to disobey ourselves or him because we would be just like him.

So you're admitting that God isn't perfect? Or are you saying God is perfect but has a different conception of perfection than we do? If that's so, that wouldn't make sense if God had created us like himself, now would it?

Well, didn't God create that incorrigible cynic? And if we're created like God, does that mean God is also an incorrigible cynic?

Getting dizzy yet?

If God created us to be like himself (i.e., good), and we are not good, who else's responsibility is it besides God's? If we are good, than we are like God and have no need of being "fixed". If we are not good, then God failed in his objective, but even his failure must have been good because he is God...right?

So the minute God steps in, man loses his free will, correct?

Then the moment he created us, man lost his free will.

None of which would have been necessary had he truly created us like himself.

God favors sellouts?

Oh, but I have. I have seeked him here, I have seeked him there, I have seeked that darn God everywhere. Why, just this morning I thought God was hiding under my bed.

Turns out it was just my cat.

Nah, what would be foolish is creating beings who you knew we're going to be unwise and disobedient, and then punishing them for being unwise and disobedient.

MrDarwin

I see that Magus is still ignoring this.

MrDarwin

In fact, it is such a pointless argument that atheists don't actually make it. Perhaps it's pointless for me to point out the distinction, but the point we make is that, given the evil that exists in the world (and not just evil, but suffering in general--there's a difference, because I can't see that one animal being slowly eaten alive by another, or slowly dying of starvation because its teeth have worn out, or dying of a painful infectious disease, is the result of anybody's free will except God's), the deity described by Christians cannot logically have the attributes they ascribe to him/her/it. The argument most of us are making is not that God does not exist, but that the Christian concept of God makes no sense.

winstonjen

Hang on a moment. God (according to you) saved Noah's family, so wouldn't it be just as easy for him to bring the children to Noah's family so they could be raised to be righteous and go to heaven? And since children aren't 'held accountable' for a certain period of time, why don't we slaughter every baby as soon as it is born so it can go to heaven?

parkdalian

I think that there is some confusion between the freedom of action amongst various people (variability of behavior in a population) and the freedom of action of a single individual. At least this argument you and others make suggests that to me.

It is like a monotoned alien species coming to Earth and seeing the various skin colors of human beings and concluding incorrectly that all humans have the ability to naturally and instantly change their skin color.

God could have made us all with the character of Mother Theresa (substitute any admirable person you wish here). We would all behave in a consistently compassionate and benign manner as she did for all her life. Mother Theresa has free will (as you think of free will) and we would all have the same degree of free will as she does. Even Mother Theresa might be capable of murder under the definition of free will that you use, but you have to admit that it wouldn't be a likely prospect with her. There would be less murder and more charity.

lpetrich

Radorth does not understand atheism very well. The usual atheist/agnostic/freethinker position is something like

I'd have to accept the existence of that being, but I'm not sure I'd want to worship him/her/it.

lpetrich

Magus55:
No its never right for a human to murder another human.

Even in self-defense?

Humans also don't kill people with the intentive purpose of sending the child to Heaven. Its always out of selfish reasons - even if hypothetical.

Magus55, you seem very sure of that. Consider that Andrea Yates had allegedly had exactly that motive.

You also don't know the ultimate fate of the child.

So what?

(how virtuous that kid could have become...)

That kid could also have become very wicked.

lpetrich

Radorth:
In fact, we are assured a "perfect God" would appear to 6 billion people and rebuke them personally each time they sinned.

Is that really impossible for an omnipotent being?

Surely he would prevent all test pilots from getting killed, drop water and food to people who chose to live on any mountain in eastern Utah as well as all the people in Africa. He would also let people have as much sex as they wanted with prostitutes, however obsessed they became, and would doubtless pay the prostitutes himself to keep the obsessed one's kids from starvation. And he would doubtless force irresponsible people to wear condoms.

In other words, create Heaven.

I note that the Koran teaches that in Paradise, men will get lots of nice new wives created for them. So there will be lots of sex in the Islamic Paradise. And presumably trouble-free sex.