Freethought & Rationalism Archive

markfiend · 07-16-2003, 03:18 AM

I've come across an argument that goes like this:

Quote:

1. Yesterday I prayed for rain.
2. Today it rained.
3. Therefore my prayer was answered.
4. Therefore God exists.

My counter of "but it would have rained anyway" is being met with a demand of "prove it".

Some help would be appreciated!

Aquila ka Hecate · 07-16-2003, 04:32 AM

I'm certainly no expert on formal logic, but I do know that a scientist would be laughed out of his lab for making claims based upon a single observation.

That is to say, the data universe is 'way too small to be drawing conclusions from.

contracycle · 07-16-2003, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by markfiend
My counter of "but it would have rained anyway" is being met with a demand of "prove it".

They are asking you to prove a negative, i.e. that god did NOT act or does not exist to act.

This is a logical fallacy, one of a similar batch.

Taffer · 07-16-2003, 05:15 AM

Ask them to pray for a meteor to land in their garden. Oh, and your garden too, just to make sure.

Otherwise, pray to Allah for nice weather tomorrow. If the sun is shining the next day, congratulations, you just proved Allah's existence! If it's raining, repeat the procedure as needed (Allah has his reasons for not immediately heeding your whim).

TheAlmightyFeaz · 07-16-2003, 05:23 AM

In all seriousness (though I do like the Allah idea) you should check an old weather report...show him that is was going to rain even BEFORE he prayed.

The_Unknown_Banana · 07-16-2003, 05:26 AM

Wow. God watches the weather channel too!

The_Unknown_Banana · 07-16-2003, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheAlmightyFeaz
In all seriousness (though I do like the Allah idea) you should check an old weather report...show him that is was going to rain even BEFORE he prayed.

lol, yeah, you got to it before I did (Though a bit more refined!)

07-16-2003, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheAlmightyFeaz
show him that is was going to rain even BEFORE he prayed.

Yes, but then that could be countered with something along the lines of, "Well, God knew what I was going to pray for before I even did!" or some other crap like that. "Goddidit!" or "Godknewit!" are hard things to crack through.

The_Unknown_Banana · 07-16-2003, 05:29 AM

Why not pray to God for rain, and Allah for nice weather? Let the Gods duke it out themselves

Still, besides the fact that God is supposed to have a master plan, and merely praying is not going to change that, doesn't the bible also say something about not testing the lord? (Or something?) Hence he probably wouldn't respond anyway.

Another way would be to convince him to try again, and then get another christian to do the same, but pray for the opposite

(How to cause chaos among christians)

markfiend · 07-16-2003, 05:59 AM

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

Ad Astra: "Goddidit!" or "Godknewit!" are hard things to crack through.

And this is why I think the discussion will probably end with me losing my temper and saying "well if you're not prepared to listen then just &�$* off!"

(How do you pronounce a row of punctuation?

)

07-16-2003, 05:59 AM	#10
markfiend Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The People's Republic of West Yorkshire Posts: 498	Thanks Thanks for the suggestions everyone. Ad Astra: "Goddidit!" or "Godknewit!" are hard things to crack through. And this is why I think the discussion will probably end with me losing my temper and saying "well if you're not prepared to listen then just &�$* off!" (How do you pronounce a row of punctuation? )

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07-16-2003, 04:32 AM	#2
Aquila ka Hecate Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Luna City Posts: 379	I'm certainly no expert on formal logic, but I do know that a scientist would be laughed out of his lab for making claims based upon a single observation. That is to say, the data universe is 'way too small to be drawing conclusions from.

07-16-2003, 05:15 AM	#4
Taffer Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bern, Switzerland Posts: 348	Ask them to pray for a meteor to land in their garden. Oh, and your garden too, just to make sure. Otherwise, pray to Allah for nice weather tomorrow. If the sun is shining the next day, congratulations, you just proved Allah's existence! If it's raining, repeat the procedure as needed (Allah has his reasons for not immediately heeding your whim).

07-16-2003, 05:23 AM	#5
TheAlmightyFeaz Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: On the run Posts: 8	In all seriousness (though I do like the Allah idea) you should check an old weather report...show him that is was going to rain even BEFORE he prayed.

07-16-2003, 05:26 AM	#6
The_Unknown_Banana Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: New Zealand Posts: 179	Wow. God watches the weather channel too!

07-16-2003, 05:29 AM	#9
The_Unknown_Banana Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: New Zealand Posts: 179	Why not pray to God for rain, and Allah for nice weather? Let the Gods duke it out themselves Still, besides the fact that God is supposed to have a master plan, and merely praying is not going to change that, doesn't the bible also say something about not testing the lord? (Or something?) Hence he probably wouldn't respond anyway. Another way would be to convince him to try again, and then get another christian to do the same, but pray for the opposite (How to cause chaos among christians)

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