Freethought & Rationalism Archive

winstonjen · 07-21-2003, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
God didn't reduce the life expectancy, sin did.

BZZZZZZZT! Do you even read the bible, or do you change it every day to suit your whims? It states clearly in Genesis: "I will not allow them to live longer than 120 years." This allegedly happened after Noah's flood.

AJ113 · 07-21-2003, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
The KJV was the earliest collection of all scripture. The Earliest copies we have are the Dead Sea scrolls. And no they weren't being duped. Out of 24,000 manuscripts of the New Testament, all of them have about a .5% error rating. The Bible manuscripts are the most accurate writings on Earth. The second most accurate ( but well behind the Bible), is Homer's Illiad. Any dismissal of the Bible as being an accurate and reliable historical record means you have to dismiss every other ancient writing from Plato, to Homer and Sophocles.

Absolute nonsense.

You are saying that because consecutive copies of the scriptures have been shown to be textually accurate when compared to the extant version, (NONE of which are the original) this somehow makes them historically accurate.

There is no correlation between textual integrity and contextual accuracy.

BadBadBad · 07-21-2003, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
The KJV was the earliest collection of all scripture. The Earliest copies we have are the Dead Sea scrolls. And no they weren't being duped. Out of 24,000 manuscripts of the New Testament, all of them have about a .5% error rating. The Bible manuscripts are the most accurate writings on Earth. The second most accurate ( but well behind the Bible), is Homer's Illiad. Any dismissal of the Bible as being an accurate and reliable historical record means you have to dismiss every other ancient writing from Plato, to Homer and Sophocles.

You mean to tell me that we have 24,000 original and complete manuscripts dating from the first century that are exactly the same within a .5% error margin? Wow. I didn't know that!

The Bible manuscripts are the most accurate writings on Earth? Really?

The Bible is an accurate and reliable historical record?

Magus, you should just go back to arguing that the Bible is true because it says so right there in the Bible. You still look foolish in the end, but we have to spend less time on it.

07-21-2003, 06:38 PM

Magus, two people have asked you the same question, and you've managed to ignore it both times. I would just love to have an answer. Now, should you one day Hansen's disease, are you going to A) seek human medical attention or B) cure yourself with the steps outlined in the Bible?

EstherRose · 07-21-2003, 07:00 PM

Since the steps outlined in the bible are not a cure but as stated plainly enough a ceremonial cleansing to be done AFTER the healing and for guilt offerings, then why would he seek this for treatment? Would you please show me where in these verses it says this is a cure?

Read it for yourself in context.

Leviticus 14
1 The LORD said to Moses,
2 "These are the regulations for the diseased person at the time of his ceremonial cleansing, when he is brought to the priest:
3 The priest is to go outside the camp and examine him. If the person has been healed of his infectious skin disease,
4 the priest shall order that two live clean birds and some cedar wood, scarlet yarn and hyssop be brought for the one to be cleansed.
5 Then the priest shall order that one of the birds be killed over fresh water in a clay pot.
6 He is then to take the live bird and dip it, together with the cedar wood, the scarlet yarn and the hyssop, into the blood of the bird that was killed over the fresh water.
7 Seven times he shall sprinkle the one to be cleansed of the infectious disease and pronounce him clean. Then he is to release the live bird in the open fields.
8 "The person to be cleansed must wash his clothes, shave off all his hair and bathe with water; then he will be ceremonially clean. After this he may come into the camp, but he must stay outside his tent for seven days.
9 On the seventh day he must shave off all his hair; he must shave his head, his beard, his eyebrows and the rest of his hair. He must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water, and he will be clean.
10 "On the eighth day he must bring two male lambs and one ewe lamb a year old, each without defect, along with three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering, and one log of oil.
11 The priest who pronounces him clean shall present both the one to be cleansed and his offerings before the LORD at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.
12 "Then the priest is to take one of the male lambs and offer it as a guilt offering, along with the log of oil; he shall wave them before the LORD as a wave offering.
13 He is to slaughter the lamb in the holy place where the sin offering and the burnt offering are slaughtered. Like the sin offering, the guilt offering belongs to the priest; it is most holy.
14 The priest is to take some of the blood of the guilt offering and put it on the lobe of the right ear of the one to be cleansed, on the thumb of his right hand and on the big toe of his right foot.
15 The priest shall then take some of the log of oil, pour it in the palm of his own left hand,
16 dip his right forefinger into the oil in his palm, and with his finger sprinkle some of it before the LORD seven times.
17 The priest is to put some of the oil remaining in his palm on the lobe of the right ear of the one to be cleansed, on the thumb of his right hand and on the big toe of his right foot, on top of the blood of the guilt offering.
18 The rest of the oil in his palm the priest shall put on the head of the one to be cleansed and make atonement for him before the LORD .
19 "Then the priest is to sacrifice the sin offering and make atonement for the one to be cleansed from his uncleanness. After that, the priest shall slaughter the burnt offering
20 and offer it on the altar, together with the grain offering, and make atonement for him, and he will be clean.
21 "If, however, he is poor and cannot afford these, he must take one male lamb as a guilt offering to be waved to make atonement for him, together with a tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering, a log of oil,
22 and two doves or two young pigeons, which he can afford, one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering.
23 "On the eighth day he must bring them for his cleansing to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting, before the LORD .
24 The priest is to take the lamb for the guilt offering, together with the log of oil, and wave them before the LORD as a wave offering.
25 He shall slaughter the lamb for the guilt offering and take some of its blood and put it on the lobe of the right ear of the one to be cleansed, on the thumb of his right hand and on the big toe of his right foot.
26 The priest is to pour some of the oil into the palm of his own left hand,
27 and with his right forefinger sprinkle some of the oil from his palm seven times before the LORD .
28 Some of the oil in his palm he is to put on the same places he put the blood of the guilt offering-on the lobe of the right ear of the one to be cleansed, on the thumb of his right hand and on the big toe of his right foot.
29 The rest of the oil in his palm the priest shall put on the head of the one to be cleansed, to make atonement for him before the LORD .
30 Then he shall sacrifice the doves or the young pigeons, which the person can afford,
31 one as a sin offering and the other as a burnt offering, together with the grain offering. In this way the priest will make atonement before the LORD on behalf of the one to be cleansed."
32 These are the regulations for anyone who has an infectious skin disease and who cannot afford the regular offerings for his cleansing.

winstonjen · 07-21-2003, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Sorry, the Bible has you beat on life expectancy. The generations in Genesis lived up to a thousand years. Lets see science beat that.

And the elves in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings have the bible beat on life expectancy. But you don't believe them to be true, do you? So why does the bible have all the correct answers?

Quote:

The more corrupt the world and each generation got, from the beginning of the pure bloodline, the shorter the life expectancy got until it tapered off. Yes, medicine has helped it go back up some, but science will never give humans back a thousand year life expectancy.

If this statement has a shred of truth in it, then our life expectancies should be going down, even with medical intervention, not up.

winstonjen · 07-21-2003, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EstherRose
Since the steps outlined in the bible are not a cure but as stated plainly enough a ceremonial cleansing to be done AFTER the healing and for guilt offerings, then why would he seek this for treatment? Would you please show me where in these verses it says this is a cure?

And how are they supposed to get cured? Medicinal herbs were denegrated as 'witchcraft', and you actually expect them to get better this way? Nothing fails like prayer. Ask for a feast, and you're lucky to get a grain of rice using this method.

gilly54 · 07-21-2003, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Please note that this is not represented in the bible as a cure, but rather as part of a person�s ceremonial cleansing. Please note this is what the Jews were required to do under the Law of Moses if a person has been healed of the disease, not meant as a cure for the disease. If you had read the entire passage in its context you would have noticed the above verses. The ceremonial cleansing was not meant for healing purposes but, as part of the Law of Moses, to make a person righteous before God if they followed every part of it.

My Bibble reads differently. I have the KJV and it says in Lev. 14:7 "And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy..."

BTW, what is sprinkled over the leper is bird blood.Kill one of two birds, dip the live bird, along with cedar, hyssop and scarlet , in the blood of the killed bird, then sprinkle this blood on the leper seven times and he shall be pronounced clean.

If this was regarded by some tribal aborigine in New Guinea as their god's word, we would give that condescending nod that they don't know any better, but what is the Bible literalists excuse?

EstherRose · 07-21-2003, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gilly54
My Bibble reads differently. I have the KJV and it says in Lev. 14:7 "And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy..."

These are the regulations for the diseased person at the time of his ceremonial cleansing, when he is brought to the priest:
3 The priest is to go outside the camp and examine him. If the person has been healed of his infectious skin disease,

It says ceremonial cleansing. Later on it refers to cleansing (again meaning ceremonial cleansing) but that is not the same as healing. The entire passage describes the ritual offerings of the sick person and the priests' duties. At no time anywhere in this passage does this ritual refer to healing.

winstonjen · 07-21-2003, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EstherRose
At no time anywhere in this passage does this ritual refer to healing.

Because god wants these people to die, right? Right?

07-21-2003, 06:38 PM	#114
Ad Astra Guest Posts: n/a	Come on already! Magus, two people have asked you the same question, and you've managed to ignore it both times. I would just love to have an answer. Now, should you one day Hansen's disease, are you going to A) seek human medical attention or B) cure yourself with the steps outlined in the Bible?

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07-21-2003, 07:00 PM	#115
EstherRose Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Arizona Posts: 183	Since the steps outlined in the bible are not a cure but as stated plainly enough a ceremonial cleansing to be done AFTER the healing and for guilt offerings, then why would he seek this for treatment? Would you please show me where in these verses it says this is a cure? Read it for yourself in context. Leviticus 14 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "These are the regulations for the diseased person at the time of his ceremonial cleansing, when he is brought to the priest: 3 The priest is to go outside the camp and examine him. If the person has been healed of his infectious skin disease, 4 the priest shall order that two live clean birds and some cedar wood, scarlet yarn and hyssop be brought for the one to be cleansed. 5 Then the priest shall order that one of the birds be killed over fresh water in a clay pot. 6 He is then to take the live bird and dip it, together with the cedar wood, the scarlet yarn and the hyssop, into the blood of the bird that was killed over the fresh water. 7 Seven times he shall sprinkle the one to be cleansed of the infectious disease and pronounce him clean. Then he is to release the live bird in the open fields. 8 "The person to be cleansed must wash his clothes, shave off all his hair and bathe with water; then he will be ceremonially clean. After this he may come into the camp, but he must stay outside his tent for seven days. 9 On the seventh day he must shave off all his hair; he must shave his head, his beard, his eyebrows and the rest of his hair. He must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water, and he will be clean. 10 "On the eighth day he must bring two male lambs and one ewe lamb a year old, each without defect, along with three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering, and one log of oil. 11 The priest who pronounces him clean shall present both the one to be cleansed and his offerings before the LORD at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 12 "Then the priest is to take one of the male lambs and offer it as a guilt offering, along with the log of oil; he shall wave them before the LORD as a wave offering. 13 He is to slaughter the lamb in the holy place where the sin offering and the burnt offering are slaughtered. Like the sin offering, the guilt offering belongs to the priest; it is most holy. 14 The priest is to take some of the blood of the guilt offering and put it on the lobe of the right ear of the one to be cleansed, on the thumb of his right hand and on the big toe of his right foot. 15 The priest shall then take some of the log of oil, pour it in the palm of his own left hand, 16 dip his right forefinger into the oil in his palm, and with his finger sprinkle some of it before the LORD seven times. 17 The priest is to put some of the oil remaining in his palm on the lobe of the right ear of the one to be cleansed, on the thumb of his right hand and on the big toe of his right foot, on top of the blood of the guilt offering. 18 The rest of the oil in his palm the priest shall put on the head of the one to be cleansed and make atonement for him before the LORD . 19 "Then the priest is to sacrifice the sin offering and make atonement for the one to be cleansed from his uncleanness. After that, the priest shall slaughter the burnt offering 20 and offer it on the altar, together with the grain offering, and make atonement for him, and he will be clean. 21 "If, however, he is poor and cannot afford these, he must take one male lamb as a guilt offering to be waved to make atonement for him, together with a tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering, a log of oil, 22 and two doves or two young pigeons, which he can afford, one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. 23 "On the eighth day he must bring them for his cleansing to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting, before the LORD . 24 The priest is to take the lamb for the guilt offering, together with the log of oil, and wave them before the LORD as a wave offering. 25 He shall slaughter the lamb for the guilt offering and take some of its blood and put it on the lobe of the right ear of the one to be cleansed, on the thumb of his right hand and on the big toe of his right foot. 26 The priest is to pour some of the oil into the palm of his own left hand, 27 and with his right forefinger sprinkle some of the oil from his palm seven times before the LORD . 28 Some of the oil in his palm he is to put on the same places he put the blood of the guilt offering-on the lobe of the right ear of the one to be cleansed, on the thumb of his right hand and on the big toe of his right foot. 29 The rest of the oil in his palm the priest shall put on the head of the one to be cleansed, to make atonement for him before the LORD . 30 Then he shall sacrifice the doves or the young pigeons, which the person can afford, 31 one as a sin offering and the other as a burnt offering, together with the grain offering. In this way the priest will make atonement before the LORD on behalf of the one to be cleansed." 32 These are the regulations for anyone who has an infectious skin disease and who cannot afford the regular offerings for his cleansing.

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