seebs

No offense, but were your parents, like, entirely sane?

Indeed, the parallel is astoundingly close; causing harm to people doesn't look very much like loving them. However, in addition to the question of harm to others, Christian theology says that sins are harm to God, who wishes us to be righteous. So, in addition to any amends we might be able to make to others (and often, we can't), there's the question of atoning for the harm done to God.

Mix with the observation that wishing to do evil, but refraining out of fear of punishment, does not absolve you in the least... and you can see why we'd think we've screwed up badly enough to need help.

This is a finicky point, and I think a lot of people end up interpreting it wrong. You get people who get all caught up in self-hate, but this is wrong; it implies that God is somehow wrong to love us. You also get people who figure it doesn't matter what they do, if their sins are forgiven... Also silly, IMHO.

ybnormal

Just the history? What about today? How do you "get past" the xian discrimination going on now, other than thru denial? Sorry, but "get past that" doesn't sound like "stop that."

seebs

Didn't I just answer a post almost exactly like this?

To make a long story short, "history" is ongoing, yes, and my way of "getting past it" is not merely to stop it, but to try to get other people to stop it too.

ybnormal

Didn't I just answer a post almost exactly like this?

Not "almost". Sorry! That's my second "back button post" in 2 days... I wondered why I saw that "only one post in 60 seconds" message... now I know. Hey, I can be a thorn without saying something twice. Sorry!


To make a long story short, "history" is ongoing, yes, and my way of "getting past it" is not merely to stop it, but to try to get other people to stop it too.

That's cool... and I don't think I was thinking, you personally, when I said that... I didn't think you had written it that way... anyway, isn't the question, "Why is it there in the first place?"

seebs

Because people *suck*.

Seriously; this is the teaching that spawned this thread, the belief that "people are sinful". And here we see evidence that, just like the Bible says, *everyone* sins, even Christians.

Should intolerance be a part of our behavior? No. Neither should rape, murder, theft, envy, pride... And yet, they all show up fairly often.

In this fertile ground grows the idea that perhaps there's a way out.

HelenM

I don't think it's valid to conclude, just because people return to church, that that means the church has made them 'need' to go back.

Do you think that about other activities which people do regularly - that the activity has inappropriately instilled some kind of pathological need to go back and do it again? What about the things you do regularly? Couldn't it be simply that you enjoy them?

take care
Helen

tdekeyser

Helen, I have been to church MANY times interviewing people as they left and also when they come in. I have also interviewed many xians and this is what they tell me:

"When I am in church, I get lost in the music, worship and feelings. The sermon lifts me up and the dancing/singing is very uplifting. I am filled with the spirit and joy.

When I walk outside after everyone has left, I hear the bustling of the city, cars and buses. People walking by and everything is just how It is everyday. I go back to my life and the problems start all over, the worries are still there and the stress I felt before I went to church all returns."

So, where is this "joy" that xians are supposed to feel? How can any human feel "joy" when they are belittled by a hateful faith?

HelenM

Yes but how does that prove that church or their faith caused the stress and worry?

And also, doesn't it show that far from being belittled, they find it helpful to go to church?

I think that's a valid question. But in fact, Christians have the same emotions as everyone else, of course. Their beliefs don't take away all the pain of difficult circumstances. The 'joy' isn't a painted on smile but more of an underlying security that comes from believing that "all things work together for good" as the Bible says.

You say they are belittled - that's your own inference. Did you ask Christians "Do you feel belittled by your faith?" I expect they'd say "no". If so wouldn't you take them at their word? If you don't take them at their word how are you better than a Christian who says to a non-Christian (not all Christians say this, of course) "You say you're happy but you really can't be, without God".

If someone says they don't feel belittled, well, then they don't. And I don't see what basis you have for saying that they do. Do you see what I'm saying? I hope so

Btw thanks for the civil exchange!

Helen

tdekeyser

An abused wife will still say she is happy in her relationship, although she is told she is dirt by the husband. The husband may even say nice things or that she is 'special' married to him, but nothing without him. She is 'happy' as she knows it, but REALLY deep happiness comes from the primary thought of "I am valuable just as I am now".

So ya see, you can ask a Xian if they are happy they may say "yes". If you ask them if they feel belittled, they may say "no" just as an abused wife may say.

Stil the truth remains that they are told they are sinners, and that is not very nice, in fact it is downright abusive....

Again, imho...

HelenM

So, basically, you can't tell the difference by their responses. They might be abused; they might not. You think they are but - that's just your opinion...

Yes, 'in your opinion'. Exactly!

take care,
Helen