Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bobzammel · 12-03-2002, 06:55 PM

Some Christian fundamentalists state that because Babies are born with the "Sin nature" inherited, and have no knowledge of Jesus or God if they die, then they go to hell.
I suppose the same issue might extend to say, a tribesmen in some far off land who has never encountered any missionary, or mentally retarded or ill people who cannot comphrehend the Bible. Or even the Children who can't read the bible and understand it's deeper philosophies and what not...

Anyway, any thoughts on this? Should a God that condemns those not in the know or those who might be slightly mistaken to hell, be worshipped at all?

Philosoft · 12-03-2002, 08:04 PM

I'd bet you get both answers depending on the Christian. Similarly, here's another: assuming spontaneous abortions/stillborns, etc. do go straight to Heaven, do not pass Go, do not collect $200, are they still fetuses/newborns, etc. when they get there? Does God have to spiritually 'grow them up' in order for them to have a fulfilling afterlife?

Jayjay · 12-03-2002, 08:14 PM

If aborted babies always go to heaven, whereas non-aborted people's chances are only something like 1 out of 10, christians should in theory be advocating abortion any chance they get. Unless the babies are missing out on something for not having lived on Earth. Maybe they are second class citizens in heaven?

abe smith · 12-04-2002, 05:11 AM

The old (at least pre-Vatican 2 = Baltimore catechism) party-line >>>> when Msr Doheny taught it to me back in the early '50s, was that unbaptised infants (*not* including miscarried ones, who were generally ignored) did NOT go to Hell (altho presumably they must have borne the stain of Adam's Original Sin = alienation by generis from God) but that they the unbaptised went to a special place, not as nice & paradisaical as Heaven of course, called *LIMBO*. I expect this "out" may have been invented to ease the pain of mothers.....Or to prove that "gawd" isn't as beastly & unjust as you might think.
In any case, the whole subject of what happens to unbaptised infants seems to have fallen into neglect nowadays; and perhaps someone shd brace Joe Cardinal Rat-singer to find out what the present dogma is on all-that.....

thebeave · 12-04-2002, 07:16 AM

Some Christians believe that childern are born innocent and are assured of going to heaven up until the age which they can be expected to "figure it out and decide on their own". As I understood it, this is what Andrea Yates believed, and is why she killed her children. She thought she was a bad mother and that if she continued to raise them, they would likely go to hell because of her bad influence. She reasoned that if she killed them at a young, innocent age, they will automatically go to heaven.

happyboy · 12-04-2002, 07:27 AM

well, "some christians" are wrong then. the bible is quite clear on what it takes to get to heaven: faith in jesus. you don't see any aborted fetuses yelling the praises of Our Savior, do you?

a very disgusted happyboy

DarkBronzePlant · 12-04-2002, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by abe smith:
The old (at least pre-Vatican 2 = Baltimore catechism) party-line >>>> when Msr Doheny taught it to me back in the early '50s, was that unbaptised infants (*not* including miscarried ones, who were generally ignored) did NOT go to Hell (altho presumably they must have borne the stain of Adam's Original Sin = alienation by generis from God) but that they the unbaptised went to a special place, not as nice & paradisaical as Heaven of course, called *LIMBO*.

Ask them to show you where the bible says this to be true. Or, maybe, are they just pulling stuff out of their collective ass to try to rectify the obvious incongruities?

babelfish · 12-04-2002, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bobzammel:
Some Christian fundamentalists state that because Babies are born with the "Sin nature" inherited, and have no knowledge of Jesus or God if they die, then they go to hell.
I suppose the same issue might extend to say, a tribesmen in some far off land who has never encountered any missionary, or mentally retarded or ill people who cannot comphrehend the Bible. Or even the Children who can't read the bible and understand it's deeper philosophies and what not...

Anyway, any thoughts on this? Should a God that condemns those not in the know or those who might be slightly mistaken to hell, be worshipped at all?

Well in that ever so deserving best-seller by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins, "Left Behind," which I read not long ago, all the children under the age of 12 or so got raptured along with all the "True Believers."

So I guess SOME fundamentalists at least think that children (despite their inherent sin natures) do go to heaven if they die before puberty. Maybe because prior to that age you don't know or think too much about that evil-of-evils, SEX, and therefore are pure.

In fact, there was something in that book about pregnant women finding out to their consternation that they weren't pregnant anymore (?!?!?), and in one scene a baby gets raptured as it's being born.

Tom Sawyer · 12-04-2002, 12:08 PM

This reminds me of a joke I heard once.

A missionary is travelling around North America in the early 1500s. He goes to a Native town and starts telling everyone about Jesus and Christianity. Finally, he gets to the part where if you don't believe, you're going to end up in Hell.

One of the natives asks him, "Does that mean my father and grandfather and all my ancestors before them are now in Hell because they didn't believe in your God?"

The missionary replies, "No. If you die without hearing about Jesus, God will not hold that against you and will let you into Heaven. It's only those who have been told about Him and reject him that are sent to Hell for their disbelief."

The native looks at him for a moment and then says, "Well, why the hell did you tell us about it then?"

I've always found that one to be funny.

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: peteyh ]

happyboy · 12-04-2002, 12:26 PM

i don't know what sort of crack a lot of christians today are smoking, but the bible is quite clear on how you get to heaven: you believe in jesus. therefore, small infants, unborn babies, and anyone unfortunate enough to have never heard of christ goes to hell.

note please that this includes everyone born before christ, so there's an awful lot of people in hell right now. ahhh, what a God of love!

12-03-2002, 06:55 PM	#1
Bobzammel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 276	Babies, others in hell for not knowing? Some Christian fundamentalists state that because Babies are born with the "Sin nature" inherited, and have no knowledge of Jesus or God if they die, then they go to hell. I suppose the same issue might extend to say, a tribesmen in some far off land who has never encountered any missionary, or mentally retarded or ill people who cannot comphrehend the Bible. Or even the Children who can't read the bible and understand it's deeper philosophies and what not... Anyway, any thoughts on this? Should a God that condemns those not in the know or those who might be slightly mistaken to hell, be worshipped at all?

12-04-2002, 12:08 PM	#9
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	This reminds me of a joke I heard once. A missionary is travelling around North America in the early 1500s. He goes to a Native town and starts telling everyone about Jesus and Christianity. Finally, he gets to the part where if you don't believe, you're going to end up in Hell. One of the natives asks him, "Does that mean my father and grandfather and all my ancestors before them are now in Hell because they didn't believe in your God?" The missionary replies, "No. If you die without hearing about Jesus, God will not hold that against you and will let you into Heaven. It's only those who have been told about Him and reject him that are sent to Hell for their disbelief." The native looks at him for a moment and then says, "Well, why the hell did you tell us about it then?" I've always found that one to be funny. [ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: peteyh ]</p>

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12-03-2002, 08:04 PM	#2
Philosoft Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Southeast of disorder Posts: 6,829	I'd bet you get both answers depending on the Christian. Similarly, here's another: assuming spontaneous abortions/stillborns, etc. do go straight to Heaven, do not pass Go, do not collect $200, are they still fetuses/newborns, etc. when they get there? Does God have to spiritually 'grow them up' in order for them to have a fulfilling afterlife?

12-03-2002, 08:14 PM	#3
Jayjay Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 6,261	If aborted babies always go to heaven, whereas non-aborted people's chances are only something like 1 out of 10, christians should in theory be advocating abortion any chance they get. Unless the babies are missing out on something for not having lived on Earth. Maybe they are second class citizens in heaven?

12-04-2002, 05:11 AM	#4
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	The old (at least pre-Vatican 2 = Baltimore catechism) party-line >>>> when Msr Doheny taught it to me back in the early '50s, was that unbaptised infants (not including miscarried ones, who were generally ignored) did NOT go to Hell (altho presumably they must have borne the stain of Adam's Original Sin = alienation by generis from God) but that they the unbaptised went to a special place, not as nice & paradisaical as Heaven of course, called LIMBO. I expect this "out" may have been invented to ease the pain of mothers.....Or to prove that "gawd" isn't as beastly & unjust as you might think. In any case, the whole subject of what happens to unbaptised infants seems to have fallen into neglect nowadays; and perhaps someone shd brace Joe Cardinal Rat-singer to find out what the present dogma is on all-that.....

12-04-2002, 07:16 AM	#5
thebeave Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Silicon Valley, CA Posts: 4,183	Some Christians believe that childern are born innocent and are assured of going to heaven up until the age which they can be expected to "figure it out and decide on their own". As I understood it, this is what Andrea Yates believed, and is why she killed her children. She thought she was a bad mother and that if she continued to raise them, they would likely go to hell because of her bad influence. She reasoned that if she killed them at a young, innocent age, they will automatically go to heaven.

12-04-2002, 07:27 AM	#6
happyboy Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on the border between here and there, WV Posts: 373	well, "some christians" are wrong then. the bible is quite clear on what it takes to get to heaven: faith in jesus. you don't see any aborted fetuses yelling the praises of Our Savior, do you? a very disgusted happyboy

12-04-2002, 12:26 PM	#10
happyboy Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on the border between here and there, WV Posts: 373	i don't know what sort of crack a lot of christians today are smoking, but the bible is quite clear on how you get to heaven: you believe in jesus. therefore, small infants, unborn babies, and anyone unfortunate enough to have never heard of christ goes to hell. note please that this includes everyone born before christ, so there's an awful lot of people in hell right now. ahhh, what a God of love!

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