Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ruby-soho · 06-16-2003, 09:46 AM

A poster from another board I participate in (CreationTalk) submitted this wonderful piece about the Hawaiian Islands. The author goes by the handle, MechanicalBliss, there. I'm not sure if he/she posts here at Infidels or not. I thought that it would be relevant to this discussion on Flood "Geology".

Quote:

The Hawaiian Islands are an excellent example of plate tectonics in action as well as the relative uniformity of motion over time. The Pacific Plate moves over a stable hot spot, and it is the upwelling of molten material from this hot spot that creates the Hawaiian Islands. There are several pieces of evidence to consider that support this model:

1. Erosion and contraction of older islands - as the Pacific Plate moves roughly northwest, islands become volcanically inactive as they are no longer over the hot spot. Without the extrusion of magma, these islands are subjected to erosion and they contract as they cool. This is exactly what we see: the islands are smaller as you look progressively northwest from Hawaii ("the big island") because they are older.

2. The modern Hawaiian islands show very little to zero sedimentation on their surface and are composed of basaltic rock indicating that they have not been submerged underwater (this refutes the global flooding hypothesis--the Hawaiian islands show no evidence of flooding required for that hypothesis to be true).

3. K-Ar dating supports exactly what we should see: the basaltic rocks comprising the islands should be older as you move away from the currently active island over the hot spot.

4. Regardless of K-Ar dating, without knowing the dates from this method, you could use the current, observed rate of motion of the Pacific Plate and the distances between the islands to determine the age difference between islands. Consequently, if you use the observed rate of motion of this plate along with the observed distances between the islands, the ages that you compute do indeed correllate with K-Ar dating (yet another piece of evidence that validates K-Ar dating).

Now, I'll illustrate this relationship by doing some simple back-of-the-envelope calculations using rough estimates based upon the following diagram. I used approximated distances between islands and the average age of each island (except for Hawaii, I used 0 because it is currently active).

The ages are determined by radiometric dating, but that is irrelevant because those ages can be determined from modern rate of motion and distances between islands, as I said previously. I will now demonstrate this by calculating what the rate of spreading should be for the interval between each island. Working backwards you can validate the dates.

The first number is the distance between the islands in question (kilometers), the second number is the age difference between the islands (millions of years), the third number is the rate of plate motion (centimeters per year).

1. Hawaii to Maui: 125 km, 1.3 Ma, 9.6 cm/yr
2. Maui to Molakai: 80 km, 0.805 Ma, 9.9 cm/yr
3. Molakai to Oahu: 125 km, 1.32 Ma, 9.5 cm/yr
4. Oahu to Kauai: 180 km, 1.95 Ma, 9.2 cm/yr

The average plate motion rate is 9.6 cm/yr, and the calculations yield a fairly consistent rate. The observed rate of motion for the Pacific Plate is measured to be approximately 10 cm/yr. The prediction that the plate's motion is uniform is confirmed. Again, if you only had the rate of motion for the plate and the distance between each island, you could easily verify the K/Ar dates obtained for the islands.

This not only validates uniformity of spreading rates over millions of years (you could also extend this to other islands further back in the chain's history) but also potassium-argon radiometric dating. In short, the earth cannot be merely several thousands of years old, plate tectonics could not happen rapidly, and a global flooding event did not occur because there is no sedimentation on the modern islands indicating that they have not been submerged.

YECism and flood geology are falsified once again.

You can find the original here. The same author has another essay entitled, Angular Uncomformities: Refutation of YECism/Flood Geology which details more problems.

Enjoy,

David

Mageth · 06-16-2003, 10:25 AM

Magus, all your problems with trying to defend the Flood would disappear if you would simply recognize that the Biblical flood account is myth, not history. You could do so without giving up your belief in god (many Christians do just that). In fact, it would make the god you believe in somewhat of a nicer chap, wouldn't you say?

Someone above brought up the excellent point that there were other civilizations that existed prior to, and after, the supposed time of Noah's flood without noticing the flood or experiencing any break in their histories. Hell, Hinduism was alive and well in India before any of the events recorded in the bible; strange that it didn't disappear when all its followers, texts, and monuments were destroyed by the flood.

And strange that all that upheaval Magus claims didn't wipe out all of the archaeological sites around the world that predate the flood.

Magus55 · 06-16-2003, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spenser
Now that is a fantastic claim. Yes, all land could be under water if the mountains were not 'lowered' but eroded (washed away) to fill parts of the existing ocean, however, there is absolutely no geological evidence of such things, quite the opposite. That is a fantastic claim in which you would bear a huge burden of proof.

Might I remind you that during the supposed time of the flood there was recorded history going on in east Asia and in Egypt. Funny, they seemed to have missed all the water that was supposed to have drowned their heathen asses and continued about their existence worrying more about their own Gods...

You sure about that? What determines whether ancient civilizations have existed during the flood? Oh I know, fallible dating methods. Ancient Egypt was one of the first civilizations to arise after the flood. Hence why the OT revolves around ancient Egypt. Any eastern civilizations that are older than Egypt could have come before the flood - which is why there is no record of them existing after it.

JonF · 06-16-2003, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55 And how would you know that? Ever seen a global catastrophe of that scale before? Have scientists ever seen it happen? Then why make guesses?

Not guesses; calculatations, based on the premise that the laws of physics have not changed, and there was no supernatural inervention.

Quote:

And since we are discussing a supernatural event - God could have altered the entire topography with the wave of a hand, with absolutely no heat involved. Remember - omnipotent, Almighty being? If He can speak the words, let it be so and create the entire universe instantly - keeping the world from boiling into nothing isn't that difficult.

If indeed there is a God, He could do that. And the study of such phenomena belongs firmly in the purview of religion and faith, since it cannot be investigated scientifically. Especially it doesn't belong in science classes in public schools in the United States.

If you wish to believe that's what happened, you are entitled and welcome to your belief. If you want to convince somebody that there is scientific eveidence for your belief, presuming miracles to get over the hard parts won't cut the mustard.

hezekiah jones · 06-16-2003, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by Magus55
What determines whether ancient civilizations have existed during the flood? Oh I know, fallible dating methods.

LOL! How many 'begats' and how many 600-year-old human beings does it take to determine the Biblical age of the universe?

Hysterical.

JonF · 06-16-2003, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
You sure about that? What determines whether ancient civilizations have existed during the flood? Oh I know, fallible dating methods.

Nope, written records.

Quote:

Ancient Egypt was one of the first civilizations to arise after the flood. Hence why the OT revolves around ancient Egypt. Any eastern civilizations that are older than Egypt could have come before the flood - which is why there is no record of them existing after it.

You forgot China ... older than Egypt.

Mageth · 06-16-2003, 02:00 PM

You sure about that? What determines whether ancient civilizations have existed during the flood? Oh I know, fallible dating methods. Ancient Egypt was one of the first civilizations to arise after the flood.

What date do you propose for the flood? See here for a timeline that starts at about 5400 BCE in the Predynastic period and describes continuous civilization in Egypt to about 30 BCE and the Greek Dynasty.

Here's a timeline of ancient Near Eastern civilizations - where in there do you propose to put the flood?

Hence why the OT revolves around ancient Egypt. Any eastern civilizations that are older than Egypt could have come before the flood - which is why there is no record of them existing after it.

Establish when "it" was before making such a ridiculous statement. When was the flood, Magus?

Mageth · 06-16-2003, 02:02 PM

You forgot China ... older than Egypt.

As well as Sumeria, considered by many to be the first "great" civilization.

SimplyAtheistic · 06-16-2003, 02:19 PM

I love how all christians jump on dating methods as being very inprecise and unreliable. Their own book dates the earth at about 6,000 years old. Now that is some precise science

Jake

scombrid · 06-16-2003, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Auto -

A lesson to those who read Genesis - as in us - to see the penalty for disobeying God and spreading so much evil, and then when He gives ample warning - ignoring it - expecting nothing to happen.

So he sent the whole human race at the time (save Noah's inbred family) to hell to scare me into submission? What an asshole.

Sorry this snipe is outdated relative to the thread. I just popped in so I'm in a tad late.

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06-16-2003, 10:25 AM	#72
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Magus, all your problems with trying to defend the Flood would disappear if you would simply recognize that the Biblical flood account is myth, not history. You could do so without giving up your belief in god (many Christians do just that). In fact, it would make the god you believe in somewhat of a nicer chap, wouldn't you say? Someone above brought up the excellent point that there were other civilizations that existed prior to, and after, the supposed time of Noah's flood without noticing the flood or experiencing any break in their histories. Hell, Hinduism was alive and well in India before any of the events recorded in the bible; strange that it didn't disappear when all its followers, texts, and monuments were destroyed by the flood. And strange that all that upheaval Magus claims didn't wipe out all of the archaeological sites around the world that predate the flood.

06-16-2003, 01:37 PM	#75
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	Originally posted by Magus55 What determines whether ancient civilizations have existed during the flood? Oh I know, fallible dating methods. LOL! How many 'begats' and how many 600-year-old human beings does it take to determine the Biblical age of the universe? Hysterical.

06-16-2003, 02:00 PM	#77
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	You sure about that? What determines whether ancient civilizations have existed during the flood? Oh I know, fallible dating methods. Ancient Egypt was one of the first civilizations to arise after the flood. What date do you propose for the flood? See here for a timeline that starts at about 5400 BCE in the Predynastic period and describes continuous civilization in Egypt to about 30 BCE and the Greek Dynasty. Here's a timeline of ancient Near Eastern civilizations - where in there do you propose to put the flood? Hence why the OT revolves around ancient Egypt. Any eastern civilizations that are older than Egypt could have come before the flood - which is why there is no record of them existing after it. Establish when "it" was before making such a ridiculous statement. When was the flood, Magus?

06-16-2003, 02:02 PM	#78
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	You forgot China ... older than Egypt. As well as Sumeria, considered by many to be the first "great" civilization.

06-16-2003, 02:19 PM	#79
SimplyAtheistic Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Omaha, Nebraska Posts: 503	I love how all christians jump on dating methods as being very inprecise and unreliable. Their own book dates the earth at about 6,000 years old. Now that is some precise science Jake

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