Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GunnerJ · 10-08-2002, 09:59 AM

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(Omitted anecdotes)

Obviously, what I just described does not prove that God exists. But it does demonstrate that happiness and family stability are correlated with following Christ. In other words, the wisdom of the Bible has a psychological effect on its adherents that extends into the real world in a practical, tangible way.

Breeze, while I'm sorry to hear about your upbringing, I can't say that any of your stories are particularly strong evidence for your contention that Christainity implies better parenting. There are several problems.

Firstly, you do not specify exaclty how many Christian and non-Christian homes you observed. Without knowing the size of the sample group, there is no way to gauge the accuracy of your observations.

Secondly, you fail to deal with even the possibility that there are polar opposites to your story. On II several members have horror stories about their Xian (And, BTW, the use of this abriviation is not meant in disrespect, but is only used for easier typing) upbringing. How would this data fit into your oconclusion? Are you going to just lamely say that they weren't "true Xians?" You run into a problem if you do, in that you must then define a "true Christian" and then valudate that definition.

Lastly, while you do have a crude correlation between Xianity and good parenting, correlation is only useful for supporting already established causal theroies; correlation cannot, on its own, prove causation. You have only looked at one variable in your "study;" the subjects' religion (or lack thereof.) Before you can leap to conclude that Xianity causes good perenting, or that "the Bible has a psychological effect on its adherents that extends into the real world in a practical, tangible way," you must eliminate all other varibles, such as economic status, pstchological problems, etc. And this must be done AFTER you specify the size of the sample group to have any meaning.

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Ideally, Christians adhere to the teachings of Christ. After all, that is where our name comes from. Christ is not present on this Earth in bodily form today, so to learn about Him we must look at records from the past. The primary records we have are found in the Bible, although there are extra-biblical documents attesting to His existence as well.

I invite you to visit our Biblical Criticism and Archeology forum and post on this subject, hopefully naming these historical sources. You may be surprised by what you find out.

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Christians believe that Jesus is God. Christians believe this because Jesus said He is. You can find multiple references in the Bible that show that Jesus believes He is God. Two excellent examples are found in the Gospel of John (John was one of the original twelve followers of Jesus). The first account is found in John 8:58. In this passage and the surrounding text, Jesus is having a debate with some Jews. During this debate, he says �before Abraham was born, I AM.� The name �I AM� is the same name that God told Moses to use to describe himself to the Israelites, as recorded in Exodus 3:14. In other words, Jesus was claiming to be the pre-existent God. The Jews recognized what Jesus was doing, and attempted to stone Him for blasphemy, because he was making Himself out to be God. The other excellent example is found in John 10:30. You can read it for yourself, but you will see that Jesus claimed one-to-one equality with God, and again faced stoning from the Jews (especially note verse 33, where the Jews say why they are trying to stone Jesus).

Your first example requires a little redaing into the passage. Your second is more problematic:

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I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. (John 10:30-31)

Interesting, however...

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My Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)

Seems we have a bit of a contradiction.

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Notice that because Jesus claimed to be God, you cannot categorize Him as a �good teacher� or a �good man�, as many often try to do. You have only three choices with Jesus. He either claimed to be God but knew He was not (this makes Him a liar), or He thought He was God but actually was not (this makes Him a lunatic), or He claimed He was God and really was God (this makes Him Lord). I believe the latter option. There are no other choices. This is it. I challenge anyone reading this to give me any other alternative, or to demonstrate that Jesus was a liar or a lunatic. You are left with only one choice.

How about: the Gospels are not an acurate account of Jesus' words? This isn't even a fourth choice, in fact. It's simply a matter of calling into question the hidden major premise of this argument: that the Gospels are, in fact, and accurate account of what Jesus was like and what he did. You can only use the trilemma as an argument if you assume that. And we have no reason to assume so, at all.

personally, I do not try to categorize Jesus as merely a "good teacher." I categorize him as a myth, and believe that if he were a real person, his espousal of the doctrine of hell and his claims that he "came not to bring peace, but a sword," and his undermining of family values (Matthew 10:34-36), make him quite a bad teacher.

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As most people know, Jesus was crucified about three years after He began His public ministry...

You mean, "As most people believe..." I stand unconvinced that such and event ever occured, as I see little evidence of it.

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The twelve men who had followed him watched as He was nailed to a cross, a humiliating and excruciating form of Roman capital punishment. The followers scattered, as you might expect. Here is a man who claimed to be God, yet now He was apparently overcome by mere mortals and was being executed. Who could blame them for deserting Jesus?

Yet, about 40 days later, you find all these men boldly proclaiming that Jesus is God and that He is the only way to salvation. History records that these men were all martyred for this belief...

Sorces, please?

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To me, this is the best evidence that Jesus is God (and therefore, that God exists). People do not die for what they know to be a lie.

Fair enough. But I have yet to see any evidence that anyone did, in fact, dies for testifying to a ressurection that they would have known was a lie.

DarkBronzePlant · 10-08-2002, 10:05 AM

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...
My father was a good man but he and I had conflicts and issues as well. Neither he nor my mother were Christians, or had any spiritual belief to my knowledge.

All this made for an unsettling home life with no emotional or spiritual grounding. The only spiritual influence I had was my paternal grandmother. She had a strong faith which I would not characterize as intellectual, but it helped her hang on through three bouts with cancer...

So you've discovered that for your own comfort, sprititual guidance in the form of religious faith is required. That actually meshes quite well with the idea that many atheists hold: religion works for some, but not for everyone.

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... Over time, as I visited several of their homes, I noticed this pattern repeated. I eventually concluded by observation that Christianity leads to a generally good home life. ..

This is the same type of anecdotal evidence that many of we atheists have observed, only in the opposite direction (Christianity often causes a disrruptive homelife.)

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That was what originally motivated me to become a Christian. However, I am not satisfied with touchy-feeling stuff as the basis for my beliefs about my life on this Earth or in eternity to follow. Some time after accepting Christ as Savior and Lord, I began looking for other evidence that I could cling to.

It seems as though you are saying that you started by liking Christianity for emotional reasons, and then looked for evidence to justify it. Is that correct?

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Christians believe that Jesus is God. Christians believe this because Jesus said He is. You can find multiple references in the Bible that show that Jesus believes He is God. Two excellent examples are found in the Gospel of John (John was one of the original twelve followers of Jesus). The first account is found in John 8:58. In this passage and the surrounding text, Jesus is having a debate with some Jews. During this debate, he says “before Abraham was born, I AM.” The name “I AM” is the same name that God told Moses to use to describe himself to the Israelites, as recorded in Exodus 3:14. In other words, Jesus was claiming to be the pre-existent God. The Jews recognized what Jesus was doing, and attempted to stone Him for blasphemy, because he was making Himself out to be God. The other excellent example is found in John 10:30. You can read it for yourself, but you will see that Jesus claimed one-to-one equality with God, and again faced stoning from the Jews (especially note verse 33, where the Jews say why they are trying to stone Jesus).

Notice that because Jesus claimed to be God, you cannot categorize Him as a “good teacher” or a “good man”, as many often try to do. You have only three choices with Jesus. He either claimed to be God but knew He was not (this makes Him a liar), or He thought He was God but actually was not (this makes Him a lunatic), or He claimed He was God and really was God (this makes Him Lord). I believe the latter option. There are no other choices. This is it. I challenge anyone reading this to give me any other alternative, or to demonstrate that Jesus was a liar or a lunatic. You are left with only one choice.

Not true. There are plenty of other alternatives. Try to imagine, just for a moment, that the bible was made up. Albeit based on some true events; certainly the bible has some historical factuality. But then, so does the Oddessey and the Illiad.

Perhaps Jesus never existed, and his whole story was made up. Or perhaps, as Karen Armstrong suggests in A History of God, Jesus was basically a "faith healer" and disciple of John the Baptist. Years and years after his death sentence, his followers began embellishing stories about him until finally, it was declared that Jesus was, in fact, god.

Possible?

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As most people know, Jesus was crucified about three years after He began His public ministry. The twelve men who had followed him watched as He was nailed to a cross, a humiliating and excruciating form of Roman capital punishment. The followers scattered, as you might expect. Here is a man who claimed to be God, yet now He was apparently overcome by mere mortals and was being executed. Who could blame them for deserting Jesus?

Yet, about 40 days later, you find all these men boldly proclaiming that Jesus is God and that He is the only way to salvation. History records that these men were all martyred for this belief, dying gruesome deaths themselves. Something happened during that 40 days that completely convinced these men that Jesus is God. The Bible records that Jesus was resurrected from the dead. This is the central foundation of Christian faith.

See above. More of the same.

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To me, this is the best evidence that Jesus is God (and therefore, that God exists). People do not die for what they know to be a lie. They may die for what they believe to be true, but not for what they know to be false. These men saw Jesus die, yet every single one of them also attested that He was resurrected from the dead and believed this to their graves.

So says the bible again. The same book which claims that stars are like figs that can drop to the earth. Or that there somewhere on the earth, there is a tree up which one can climb to view all of creation.

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One of my favorite passages from the Bible is found in the book of Acts (which records the activities of the early Church), in chapter four and verse 20. Two of the disciples are warned by Jewish rulers not to continue teaching about Jesus. The response of these two disciples is simple and to the point: “We cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and what we have heard.” These men were convinced by empirical evidence.

But I ask you... what empirical evidence do you have that any of the events actually happened? What empirical evidence do you have the bible is any more factual than any other mythical stories?

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I hope that you will read this over again to make sure you absorb what I have said, then comment on it. I look forward to hearing from this group.

I have. Sorry to say, though, it's nothing new. What it really boils down to, is that the bible says so. The bible says that Jesus said he's god. The bible says that people saw Jesus reincarnate. But I must wonder why you don't question the truthfulness of the bible. Why does the bible get such special treatment that everything is accepted at face value?

[ October 08, 2002: Message edited by: DarkBronzePlant ]

DivineOb · 10-08-2002, 10:12 AM

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Originally posted by Goliath:
DivineOb,

I have never made such a claim, nor will I more than likely ever make such a claim.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Ok I think we're just missing each other here, so let me restate what I'm saying very carfully.

My reasoning is as follows

1) A teacher named Jesus existed and he had followers
2) This man might or might not have been executed, and if he was executed, he might or might not have been resurrected.
3) Because his followers were alive when he would have been executed (if that did indeed happen) and were alive when he would have been resurrected), they very well could have experienced conclusive evidence (or inconclusive evidence) for one or both of these things (if they occured).
4) Modern day believers are not in this position since the events happened before we were born. Thus, the early followers of Jesus were in a unique position because they possibly could have witnessed conclusive evidence of Jesus' alleged death and resurrection.
5) Thus, the early believers could have witnessed events that modern day believers cannot witness.
6) Therefore, the experience of early christians and modern day christians cannot be compared.

Now, where do you object? I'd prefer if you answered something other than premise one because that wasn't what you objected to in BT's statement about the earliy believers dying for a lie.

Eudaimonist · 10-08-2002, 10:49 AM

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Originally posted by BreezeinaTree:
I appreciate that most people have been very civil. I'm sorry that some so-called "Christians" before me have visited this site and have been jerks to you all.

Thanks, and I appreciate that you've been civil.

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1. In high school, I fell into a group of friends who were predominantly Christian. At the time I was not looking for Christian friends, just friends. However, these people were nice and fun-loving.

I know nice and fun-loving nontheists...

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I often spent time at their homes, and saw some of their home life with their parents. The difference was night and day compared to my home. They all seemed generally happy.

...and happy nontheistic families. I'm sorry to hear that your family did not provide the values you needed. Sad to say, both Christian and non-Christian families exist that are not happy.

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Obviously, what I just described does not prove that God exists. But it does demonstrate that happiness and family stability are correlated with following Christ.

Not following Christ, exactly, but perhaps developing certain moral habits and/or engaging in certain sorts of social activities. It's difficult to say exactly what it was that was contributing to the success of those families. It might have been something that nontheistic families could also do and remain nontheistic.

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Christ is not present on this Earth in bodily form today, so to learn about Him we must look at records from the past. The primary records we have are found in the Bible, although there are extra-biblical documents attesting to His existence as well.

Not as many extra-biblical sources as you might think. They are scanty at best. That's not good for a rational case for an historical Jesus.

You might want to check out such challenges to an historical Jesus as <a href="http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/home.htm" target="_blank">The Jesus Puzzle</a>. I'm not an expert on Bible issues, but I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus was a mythical character who never had a human existence.

NOTE: This isn't specifically the reason why I'm not a Christian, but it's a reason for a cautious skepticism about Christian beliefs.

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You have only three choices with Jesus. He either claimed to be God but knew He was not (this makes Him a liar), or He thought He was God but actually was not (this makes Him a lunatic), or He claimed He was God and really was God (this makes Him Lord). I believe the latter option. There are no other choices.

Three others: Mistaken. Myth. Misrepresented.

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I challenge anyone reading this to give me any other alternative

How'd I do?

[ October 08, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonist ]

K · 10-08-2002, 10:58 AM

Breeze:

Let me start out by saying I appreciate the generally non-confrontational approach you've exhibitid in this thread. I'd also like to say that, while I can't know exactly how you felt growing up in the environment you did, I can certainly appreciate that you did not have it easy growing up. I don't want to sound like I'm dismissing your story and I am thankful that you felt willing to share it here.

That being said, I would like to point out that your reasons for first accepting Christianity are emotional - not empirical as first purported. As an electrical engineer, I'm sure you know the mathematical formula for correlation. Simply finding several Christian households that provided a good home life does not show an actual correlation.

The New Testament criticism has already been handled well. C.S. Lewis' trilemma is a fallacy as noted by others earlier in the thread.

In the end, you have really only provided emotional reasons for your faith. That is absolutely fine for you to believe, and I wouldn't take that away from you. But you implied that you had empirical data. Many of us here would be open to examining real empirical evidence, but we will expect real data.

Again, I don't want to dismiss your story or to make light of it. I just want you to understand why I would reject your data as non-empirical and unconvincing.

Shadowy Man · 10-08-2002, 11:11 AM

So, if he had fallen in with a group of people who were Jewish with happy home lives, he would now be a Jew?

I agree with whoever said that he chose Christianity for emotional reasons and then looked for reasons to support his decision.

Rusting Car Bumper · 10-08-2002, 11:30 AM

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Originally posted by BreezeinaTree:
[QB]
Notice that because Jesus claimed to be God, you cannot categorize Him as a “good teacher” or a “good man”, as many often try to do. You have only three choices with Jesus. He either claimed to be God but knew He was not (this makes Him a liar), or He thought He was God but actually was not (this makes Him a lunatic), or He claimed He was God and really was God (this makes Him Lord). I believe the latter option. There are no other choices. This is it. I challenge anyone reading this to give me any other alternative, or to demonstrate that Jesus was a liar or a lunatic. You are left with only one choice.[QB]

If you talk to historians or religious studies scholars you get more than three choices. Essentially no one viewpoint dominates or is in the majority. Thus, having historical basis to claim Lord, Liar, Lunatic is shady at best.

Essentially the Lord, liar, lunatic argument is rather naive and I'm sorry to say... You've bought into a naive argument.

Other possibilities:

Jesus may not have existed.
Jesus may have existed and executed but all stories assigned to him.
Jesus may have existed and was executed and some of the things he said were true but other assigned to him.
Some person may have been executed who was later assigned the name "Jesus" and stories assigned to him.
Jesus could be a conglomeration of different stories and some new ones.
and so on.

DC

K · 10-08-2002, 11:59 AM

Even if the trilemma were valid, lunatic or liar are immensely more probable than Lord. I believe the reason this resonates so well with Christians is their desire not to blapheme Christ by even considering the possibilities that he was a lunatic or a liar. However, looking throughout history, how many people have claimed divinity? How many were actually divine? That makes for a lot of lunatics and liars and no real reason to believe Jesus wasn't one of them.

Vibr8gKiwi · 10-08-2002, 12:53 PM

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Originally posted by K:
However, looking throughout history, how many people have claimed divinity? How many were actually divine? That makes for a lot of lunatics and liars and no real reason to believe Jesus wasn't one of them.

Exactly. Find one person who died for a lie and you've falsified the contention that people won't die for a lie (I can provide many from the history of the Mormons). Find one lunatic/liar that outwardly appears sane/honest and you've falsified the "liar, lord, lunatic" argument (even ignoring the false tri-lemma issue).

That's the problem with this whole thread, this guy claims to be an engineer but is completely ignoring the process of falsification with his religion. It's not very important how many apologetic books he's read or how much he's seen his religion confirmed--these cannot falsify the religion. How have he tried to falsify his belief? How many atheist books have he read? How many moral, supportive, non-religious families has he talked with? Is it more reasonable that the fantastical stories in the bible actually happened or are merely legend and myth written down by ancient, ignorant, superstitious people?

Opera Nut · 10-08-2002, 12:55 PM

Because Xtianity is the most morbid, bloodthirsty, gross, primitive, sick, anti-intellectual, anti-woman, intolerant, pro-slavery, anti-science, concentrated on torture(crucifixion), life denying religion there is.

It makes me suicidal to be told I am a worthless piece of crap every sunday, due to a couple of fruit munching simpletons that probably are just a fairy tale anyway.

I already slashed my wrists over being told I am a worthless piece of crap while I was a baptist.
God is just a wishful fantasy in my life. No Xtian ever lifted a finger to help when I cried out in pain, despair and unemployment.

The God described in the bible is an unpredictable psychotic mass murderer. I will have no interaction with a nut like that.

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10-08-2002, 10:58 AM	#85
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Breeze: Let me start out by saying I appreciate the generally non-confrontational approach you've exhibitid in this thread. I'd also like to say that, while I can't know exactly how you felt growing up in the environment you did, I can certainly appreciate that you did not have it easy growing up. I don't want to sound like I'm dismissing your story and I am thankful that you felt willing to share it here. That being said, I would like to point out that your reasons for first accepting Christianity are emotional - not empirical as first purported. As an electrical engineer, I'm sure you know the mathematical formula for correlation. Simply finding several Christian households that provided a good home life does not show an actual correlation. The New Testament criticism has already been handled well. C.S. Lewis' trilemma is a fallacy as noted by others earlier in the thread. In the end, you have really only provided emotional reasons for your faith. That is absolutely fine for you to believe, and I wouldn't take that away from you. But you implied that you had empirical data. Many of us here would be open to examining real empirical evidence, but we will expect real data. Again, I don't want to dismiss your story or to make light of it. I just want you to understand why I would reject your data as non-empirical and unconvincing.

10-08-2002, 11:11 AM	#86
Shadowy Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Shadowy Planet Posts: 7,585	So, if he had fallen in with a group of people who were Jewish with happy home lives, he would now be a Jew? I agree with whoever said that he chose Christianity for emotional reasons and then looked for reasons to support his decision.

10-08-2002, 11:59 AM	#88
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Even if the trilemma were valid, lunatic or liar are immensely more probable than Lord. I believe the reason this resonates so well with Christians is their desire not to blapheme Christ by even considering the possibilities that he was a lunatic or a liar. However, looking throughout history, how many people have claimed divinity? How many were actually divine? That makes for a lot of lunatics and liars and no real reason to believe Jesus wasn't one of them.

10-08-2002, 12:55 PM	#90
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	Because Xtianity is the most morbid, bloodthirsty, gross, primitive, sick, anti-intellectual, anti-woman, intolerant, pro-slavery, anti-science, concentrated on torture(crucifixion), life denying religion there is. It makes me suicidal to be told I am a worthless piece of crap every sunday, due to a couple of fruit munching simpletons that probably are just a fairy tale anyway. I already slashed my wrists over being told I am a worthless piece of crap while I was a baptist. God is just a wishful fantasy in my life. No Xtian ever lifted a finger to help when I cried out in pain, despair and unemployment. The God described in the bible is an unpredictable psychotic mass murderer. I will have no interaction with a nut like that.

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