BreezeinaTree

I am posting for the first time to this forum, and am a newcomer, so I apologize in advance if I am repeating a topic.

Let me introduce myself. I am a Christian. I accepted Christ as Savior and Lord in 1996. I am an Electrical Engineer; I graduted with Highest Honors with a Masters in EE in 1997. I put a high premium on the thinking side of my faith, and I have found Christianity to be a faith that is intellectually satisfying.

I read some of the postings on this site, and I want to clarify a few things up front. First, I am secure in my beliefs. I am not visiting here to "argue with myself" or to try to convince myself about what I believe. Secondly, I am open minded and willing to engage in discussions with a minimum of emotional reaction.

For all of you who are atheists reading this, I am curious about some things and I would like to hear what you think.

1. What do you think happens to you after your death?

2. To me, atheism ultimately implies that there is no greater meaning to life. Yes, you can give your life some meaning by contributing to society, having children, etc. But ultimately, there is no higher force to create meaning. This gets back to question 1 above, but in the atheist view as I understand it, personal meaning ends upon your death. Martin Luther King Jr. did some great things in his life, but he does not reap the benefit himself because he was martyred for his pursuit of meaning. So, why do atheists try so hard to deny or reject God? Seems to me that people would rather try to prove God exists. Forget about organized religion, why not try to prove that there is a God?

3. Among religions, Christianity is most often targeted by atheists. Do atheists really see Christianity as a threat? Why?

4. What do you think Western society would be like without its bent toward Christian beliefs? Would it be better or worse?

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Mecha_Dude

1. You just cease to exist, there's no such thing as a "soul". When you die, you die, just like all the other animals.

2.Basically, nothing in the universe matters, nothing is signifigant, and nothing is important. That said, I'd like to say that I enjoy my existance, however short and pointless it may be.

3.Mostly because most atheists were christians at one time. If an atheist was muslim, for example, Islam would be the target of most their arguements.

4. Better. Christianity seems to impede science. For example, if "president" bush had not restricted stem cell research, we might have been well on our way to a cure for paralysis by now. It also seems to inspire hate. especially against homosexuals and Atheists.

Bible Humper

Hello there, and welcome!

I hope to see you in the Existence Of God(s) forum, there are myriad problems which seem to make Christianity completely unsatisfying intellectually.

You rot. Consciousness is gone forever, the best comparison to what "happens" to your consciousness after death is what happened to it before you were conceived. Nothing.

Actually, you are describing nihilism here. Not all, or even most, atheists are nihilists.

Actually, this is usually the intermediate stage between being religious and becoming an atheist. I for one would much prefer a universe that loves me and has given me immortality, a liberal christian's view of Yahweh, than what I've got.

I can't be dishonest with myself, and if I had the ability to make myself believe in Yahweh I might as well just believe in the hedonistic religion of Dionysus instead.

Most of the people here live where Xianity is the dominant religion.

My mother has somehow convinced herself that there is a Heaven despite the fact that she doesn't believe in Yahweh and that she will see her parents there when she dies. I wouldn't think of challenging her belief.

It really depends, I consider the christians who would frequent this board to be courageous enough intellectually that I feel few qualms challenging them, but I'm not sure that the truth is for everyone.

What possible compensation would there be for my Mom for losing her Heaven belief?

Leigh

Why Christianity? Why not Zeus? Or Allah? Or the Invisible Pink Unicorn? The answers you give to such a question are probably similar to the answers atheists will give to your question.

Liquidrage

1. What do you think happens to you after your death?

No clue.

2. To me, atheism ultimately implies that there is no greater meaning to life. Yes, you can give your life some meaning by contributing to society, having children, etc. But ultimately, there is no higher force to create meaning. This gets back to question 1 above, but in the atheist view as I understand it, personal meaning ends upon your death. Martin Luther King Jr. did some great things in his life, but he does not reap the benefit himself because he was martyred for his pursuit of meaning. So, why do atheists try so hard to deny or reject God? Seems to me that people would rather try to prove God exists. Forget about organized religion, why not try to prove that there is a God?


Because I have seen no evidence that suggests anything created our universe that was aware it was doing so. You talk of meaning. What meaning does Christianity give? And even if Christianity gave a great meaning to life, it does not in anyway make that meaning true.
Don't confuse the truth with what you would like to be true.

3. Among religions, Christianity is most often targeted by atheists. Do atheists really see Christianity as a threat? Why?


Don't be so self centered. Christianity is currently the dominant religion where I live. There is no other reason beyond that.

4. What do you think Western society would be like without its bent toward Christian beliefs? Would it be better or worse?


I could only guess. Regardless, this assertion has nothing to do with what is or isn't true.

Let me introduce myself. I am a Christian. I accepted Christ as Savior and Lord in 1996. I am an Electrical Engineer; I graduted with Highest Honors with a Masters in EE in 1997. I put a high premium on the thinking side of my faith, and I have found Christianity to be a faith that is intellectually satisfying.

Do not bother posting these credentials in the future unless they are relevent. You will not wow anyone here with a masters degree in a post about religion. This is not an uneducated message board by any means and your credentials are neither special nor rare. Now, if you were to post on something related to your degree, the credentials would be meaningfull. Simply trying to show you are intellectual and that you are "intellectually" satafied with your religion is meaningless. Your questions rest on their own morales.

It is great that you have accepted Jesus as your savior. Maybe you could go to a Muslim board and argue with them over which one of you has a stronger feeling in your "heart" that you are right. Because we all know you cannot bring any emphirical evidence to the table that can substantiate the claims of Christianty/Islam/Hinduism et al. All your religion provides is "feelings" and ones that are not unique to your religion nor are these feelings ones that you need a religion to experience. We all have a voice in our head. I just don't call it "god".

Perchance

Hello.

1. Oblivion (at least in the sense of anything like a personal consciousness surviving). Actually, I consider even the word oblivion a little misleading, since I believe that what is me in the sense of personality won't survive death in any shape, state, or form. My body will, and will be ashes (I've decided to be cremated). But I won't be there, and so in a sense oblivion isn't appropriate, since it's still a word based on perception. Non-existence is perhaps better.

2. Life has no greater "meaning" in the sense that I suppose you're using it (destiny, fate, whatever). I don't care. In fact, I am grateful for the freedom that gives me.

Now, I would say that life can have meaning in the sense that, say, the word "apple" can have meaning. "Apple" has no inherent meaning; that is, the symbol is not connected to the thing it symbolizes in any way. You can call it manzana in Spanish and mean the same fruit. But "apple" has meaning to an English-speaker, because he or she has been raised from childhood in an environment where that word is applied to a particular kind of fruit. If the word had happened to develop differently- say, we called apples "rupateni" or something of the kind- then apple wouldn't have meaning, but the fruit would still exist.

The point of this somewhat-ramble ( ) is to say that I believe life can be given meaning, and different meanings, in the way that things can be given different names in different languages. One person might see her life as having meaning because she's dedicated to a cause, like civil rights or the environment or politics- or religion. Another might see her life as having purpose because she creates things. Still a third might consider caring for his children the thing that gives meaning to his life. Or maybe someone else finds fulfillment in his career. I define "meaning" in this case as being happy and productive- in the individual's eyes. It can't have meaning objectively, because I don't think that an objective perspective on humanity exists, unless we someday manage to talk to something non-human.

I don't think that life has any external meaning, and another person's way of making their life mean something may mean nothing to me. But it doesn't mean that it means nothing to him or her, or that my way of making my life matter to myself means nothing at all.

3. Most of the atheists on this board come from societies where Christianity is or was the dominant religion (United States, UK, Australia, New Zealand). There are some who don't, and they may not be as set against Christianity. But those atheists who argue against Christianity have a variety of reasons. My own particular one is that I've never understood it, have lost friends because of it (I'm in the process of losing a third as we speak, because he can't accept that I won't become Southern Baptist), and because I think it causes harm, both physical and intellectual. If Islam was the dominant religion here, and the circumstances of my life were otherwise the same, just replacing the Christianity with Islam, I think that I'd be set against Islam.

4. It's impossible to say what life would be like without just one variable, since that one variable tugs on a lot of other things just by being present, and banishing it would mean having to banish the loose ends of the other variables, too, and thus changing the other variables in nature. But, having said that, my gut feeling- unsupported by much scientific evidence, mind you- is that history would have been better. I read about Christianity's domination in Western Europe for a thousand years with horror. People were put to death for having the wrong beliefs, for refusing to be intimidated, because people thought they were using non-existent magic, and for a host of other reasons, for what I believe is nothing but the human brain's desperate longing for immortality. And when I think of the books that were burned and the art that was destroyed... and what might have been, if science hadn't been halted in its tracks and people who might have created art otherwise weren't forced into keeping silent...

I don't like to think about it too much. It's too depressing.

That said, welcome to II. And I hope that you will stand the debates here. It's a rare theist who does without withdrawing, or getting angry or abusive.

-Perchance.

Janaya

Welcome to the forum Bree...Tree. I think you will find that most people are nice and polite to other people but pretty ruthless with belief systems and arguments for them. However, there are exceptions. (as with anything)

This is my current POV:

1. I agree with Mecha_Dude. Nothing 'happens'. I believe in life before death.

First of all I would like to define atheism as I see it. Atheism simply means lack of a god belief. Nothing more, nothing less. However, I think it can be further divided into two categories: 1. Default Atheism. Someone that lacks a god belief because they have never been presented with one. (infants, mentally challenged, feral people, etc.) AND B. Cognitive Atheism. Someone that has adopted the atheistic position through logic, reason, and the study and subsequent rejection of the god claims put forth by religionists. With that said, many people (both theists and atheists) try to add to these definitions.

Why does there have to be a 'higher purpose'? Or even 'meaning'?

First, review my definitions above. Atheists do not deny or reject God. If God made itself unequivocally known to us it would be foolish to deny something that obviously exists. To reject God is to acknowledge that there is something to reject. What atheists do is reject (for good reasons) specific god claims made by religionists. Again if God made itself known to me I would be an idiot to deny its existence, however, I might still reject God if that God was not worthy of worship (or whatever).

Why?

All we can do is examine the evidence, or lack thereof, presented by religion (organized or otherwise) and accept or reject the claim based on that evidence. Other than that, existential claims can not be proven either way.

Yes. Christianity is one of the most intrusive religions that exists. Christians constantly lie for their faith (see Creationists for a good example). They also want everyone else to be a Christian. They disrupt public life, re-write history, intentionally mislead the public, bomb abortion clinics, destroy indigenous people (or their culture), short-circuit rational thought, refuse to face the horrific history of their religion, promote ignorance...etc. (I could go on) And all the while, most of them have not even read the entire Bible.

I see all religion (irrationalism) as inherently harmful. I think it would be better. It would be infinitely better if critical thinking, effective communication, science, philosophy and ethics were taught to everyone.

Peace,
Janaya

GunnerJ

As a metaphysical naturalist, I do not believe that "I" would exist if "I" wasn't alive. Thus, this question lacks meaning.

Take note this is merely my position taken as a metaphysical naturalist, not nessisarily as an atheist. It's entirely possible for an atheist to believe in a soul or an afterlife.

Then you have an incorect definition of atheism. Atheism is a lack of belief in god(s). Nothing more. Nothing less.

Um, why do you think there needs to be a "higher" "force" to "create" "meaning" in your life? Personally, I'd be disturbed if there is some powerful being dictating the meaning of my life; sounds like abject slavery. Yet, strangely, theists make it out to be some incredibly wonderful, necissary thing... oh well. Got off track there.

Incorrect. There is no "atheist view" on anything. Atheism is the lack of belief in god(s). It only makes a statement on one issue.

Some, perhaps many, atheists disbelieve in an afterlife or a soul, but they do not necessarily have to do so.

What are you talking about?

Begging the question: Do atheists try "so hard" to "deny" or "reject" "God?" Atheists don't belive in any god or gods, so it makes no sense to say that they "try hard" to "reject" or "deny" him/her/them, such language implies that atheists really do believe in god(s), but are just convincing themselves that they don't. Such is a very condescending and snobbish attitude.

Many people have tried, and it is their failure to do so that makes others atheists. Actually, it was my failure, as a one-time believer, to prove God's existence to myself, and to work out the myriad contradictions and inconsistancies in god-belief and religion in general, that made me an atheist.

I'm afraid I don't see where you're going with this. Are you trying to say that atheists should be attempting to prove God's existence? Should you, who presumably disbelieves in Santa Claus, attempt to prove his existance? Why or why not?

Have you ever read literature by atheists in, say, India, or in Arab countries? The things they devote their time on might be very different than the things atheists in the USA do.

Christianity is the dominant religion in the West,a nd especially in English-speaking areas. Christians are the ones trying to convert us to their viewpoint. Thus, wouldn't it make sense for atheists in these parts of the world to devote a lot of their time to debunking Christianity?

In America, it's not the Muslims and Hindus and Buddists trying to water down public-school science cirricula with their creation mythology, or to force schoolchildren to pray to their gods, or to make the government favor their beliefs above others. It's Christians who do this. Is that enough of a reason?

People are people, one way or another. Without Christianity, they would just have one less thing to justify their bad behavior, or to credit for their good behavior. One pitfal in answering this, though, is that I don't know what you mean by a "Christian bent." What type of Christianity does Western society "bend" towards? Catholicism? Baptitism? Pentacostalism? Episcopalianism? Mormonism? What?

BTW, as for your title, "Why Atheism? Why not Christianity?" The question is all backwards. Christianity makes positive claims, thus the burden of proof is on it, Atheism only makes one negative claim, and thus has no burden of proof. The question should read, "Why Christianity? Why not atheism?"

HelenM

Hi BreezeinaTree

I think it's fair to say that most posters here probably find Christianity anything but intellectually satisfying. So, this could be interesting...

Anyway, welcome to the Sec Web. It's not an easy place for Christians so bear that in mind if it turns out to be harder to be here than you expected.

take care
Helen

KnightWhoSaysNi

Hi Breez, welcome to the forum.

I really don't know, but I'm inclined to think that we 'cease to be' given that I'm a metaphysical naturalist. I'm relatively young, but I've given thought to my own mortality and it would be nice if there was in fact some sort of afterlife. However, like the existence of God or the supernatural, I don't think there is sufficient evidence for it.

Mahatma Gandhi did some great things in his life too, I might add, but he is now roasting in an eternal concentration camp, if we are to accept your worldview. You assume that we "try hard to deny or reject God." Perhaps some do, but for me it's merely an intellectual curiousity and I'm willing to become a theist if I think there's good evidence for it. Many of us like to debate viewpoints and are honest seekers of the truth. Indeed, it is this fervour to seek the truth that led many of us out of Christianity (there are 2 former evangelical pastors and a former evangelical seminary professor in this forum that I'm aware of).

As far as trying to prove God exists, we'll leave that job to the theologians and apologists. He who asserts must prove. To put a foot in the other shoe, creationists spend most of their time trying to attack evolution, certainly not 'prove' it.

If the majority of theists in the western countries believed in Zoroastrianism, atheists would most often target Zoroastrianism. I certainly don't consider Christianity or religion a 'threat' to me. It's merely a difference of opinion. However, I do consider dogmatism or fanatacism a threat to me. These can be found in any worldview or ideology, including Christianity (see the link on 'Christian Reconstructionism' below).

I personally don't think it would be too much different. If you go to the <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=46" target="_blank">Political Discussion forum</a>, atheists can disagree with each other on a wide range of issues. Just watch an Ayn Rand libertarian capitalist and a Marxist democratic socialist try to get along peacefully in the same room.

In addition, I'm assuming that you have accepted a conservative/evangelical Christian theology. Most Christians (though you may not consider them Christians) have a more liberal or universalist theology that's not so 'fire and brimstone'. They tend to be more universalist, they reject the "we are the One True Religion" exclusivistic theology and are focused more on social justice issues, tolerance, and community involvement. If you take a secular humanist and a liberal/mainstream Christian in the same room, exclude religion from conversation, and talk about values, you won't be able to tell who's who.

Also, the vast majority of atheists in the west embrace the values of liberal democracy. Devout evangelical Christians, for the most part, embrace liberal democracy too, excepting the <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/reconstr.htm" target="_blank">Christian Reconstructionist</a> movement who want to implement a totalitarian theocracy.

[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: Nightshade ]</p>