trillian

So many places (over 100 by my count) women are to be subservient to men in the Bible. I'm sure male Xians really like that part but what about the women?

Do female Xians at least admit that the Bible is sexist?
Or do they still think that women should obey men as their masters?

I cannot think that any modern educated woman would relegate herself to such antiquated thinking. The bible is dehumanizing to all women (as well as slaves, children, and "non-neighbors"). I mean, women can actually be RAPED and be stoned for it!!!

I personally don't think men and women are equal-- simply because they are different in biology, YET they should be TREATED equally and given the same rights and respect. None is better than the other esp. in modern times where intellect is more important than spear-throwing ability.

I don't think it necessary to list all the offenses but here are a few:

Eve's punishment: "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." (Genesis 3:16)

The Lord said to Moses, " And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." (Num. 31:17) woo hoo! Virgin booty!

"If, however, the charge is not true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of the town shall stone her to death." (Deut. 22:20-21)

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your husbands, as unto the Lord...Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." (Eph. 5:22-24)

"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." (I Tim. 2:11-14)

Xians may say here that there are few verses in the bible which revere women. So what!!? Most of the verses are STILL horrible and denegrating. Fathers are able to sell their daughters, etc.... What excuse is there for such behavior? Does one good verse make up for the 100 (probably much more) awfully sexist ones?

Trillian

PS Feel free to post your favorite sexist bible quote.

Vinnie

Certain parts are sexist.

Vinnie

Magus55

Certain parts of the OT are yes, thats how things were in those days.

Vinnie

The NT as well. Thats how things were those days. The problem is those who don't recognize this and try to legitimize these sexist practices of yesteryear as if they were the commands of God.

Vinnie

gilly54

But, isn't the Bible all about the commands of god? Shouldn't they be obeyed? How does a good god-believer determine what commands to follow and which ones to ignore without pissing god off?

Jinto

By following the advice of Acts 13:39 - And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses

In other words, they do whatever they want and call it God-sanctioned because they're Christian.

Metacrock

Have you ever actually read the Bible? It's not like just "command no 1, don't do this. comand no 2, do this...." You have to make assumptions about what kind of texts make up the Bible, you have to use textual criticial methods to detemrine what the text is really geting at, what kind of text it is, and how it applies to our lives in our own historical context.

Metacrock

Have you ever even read the Bible, been to a chruch, talked to a theologian? You are just basing this on the guy down the street right? Someone who calls himself a christian by who probably knows nothing it either.

Metacrock

Meta =>The Bible never tells women to obey men as their "masters." It never even tells wives to obey their husbands. It uses the term "submit" and most christians recognize a distinction.

First of all, there are tons of intelligent, professional and highly educated women who are faithful to Christ and who believe the Bible is the word of God. In fact it's my view that Christianity will be saved from extinction by God's powerful women in the chruch who are loyal to Jesus and refuse to give up the Gospel just for a fleeting social climet based upon certain femist prejudices.






Meta =->Here's a whole message board full of the. Please go ask them your question. They would love to hear form you:


http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/31727


by the way, the Bible never says that women should be stoned for being raped.




Meta => Male chruch leaders have mistranslated and taken out of context many of the verses that relate to women. Women who began to question the patriarchal assumptions of their cultures, in the early part of the century, began to learn Biblical languages and to question the major "anti-woman" passages. One such woman was Katherine Bushnell. She found that most of those passages are just translated wrongly. There is a website about her and her book. She was a Bible scholar who studied at Northwestern, she lived in the early part of the centruy (d.1942) and was a suggregette, the first wave of feminism in the 20th century.


Here is a link to that website. Please read it carefully. There's a lot there, but it will show you how those veres are misunderstood.

http://www.godswordtowomen.org/question.htm#Gen.%203:16




I don't think it necessary to list all the offenses but here are a few:




Meat => Read what it says on this Bushnell site about this passage. This is one major passage that is misunderstood. pain in childbirth is a consequence of the fall. Man got a conseqeunce too, having to till the ground by the sweat of his brow. But the other part, about your desire will be to your husband is not a punishment! the part about he shall rule over you should actually read [o]will rule[/i] because it is not an imperative. In other words, its a warning. The part desire isn't "your desire will be to your husband" but actualy "you are turning." In other words she was turning to her husband, away form God, to trust her husband and God is warning her that it is a mistake to trust a human rather than God and the conseuqence will be to that he will rule over her. it's not a punsihment but a warning about where her actions will lead.



Meta => That requires too protracted a discussion. yea the Bible comes out of a patriarchal culture, it was the ancient world you know. The extent to which that is a problem for the Bible just depends upon one's view of inspiration. Verbal Plenary model is not the only model of inspiration.



Meta => We understand the term "submission" to be more like cooperation than obedience.This passage begins with the statment "submit one to another" and it's giving examples of this. The understanding is that the husband might actually submit to the wife too, becasue the next phrase after the one you quote says "husbands love your wives as christ loved the chruch." The thing is Jesus said "he would be the leader must be the serant of all" and he washed the disciple's feet. The passage here says "love your wives as Christ loved the chruch and gave his life for her." So that implies a clear mutual submission, and a leadership model that turns our normal concept of leadership on its head and maks the leader the servant.


Meta => What do you want it to say? A woman should learn in noise and confussion? Women weren't educated in that day. To say that they should learn is to say "educate them" that's a step up. But one should learn in an atemosphere of submission becasue that's how you learn, listening and paying attention. The bit about not having authority over a man is contradicted by the fact that women in Paul's circle had authority in the chruch. Paul's own friend Pricilla was a chruch leader.

the word used for authority in this passage is authenteo this is the only time its ever used, and it was a very harsh word; it pertained to maniputlation and absolute control, sometimes translated as "sexual mastery." It's the kind of power a dominatrix has over a "submissive." So it's not just saying don't let women have offices int he chruch. It's probably talking about temple prostitutes who were converted to Christiantiy and tried to claim for themselves the kind of authority they had in the old pagan religion, but without knowing anyting about the faith. he's saying we don't have that kind of authority in the chruch, they should learn and pay attention and learn quitely so they will know about Christianity.

Trillian


[color=blue]Meta =>[/font]Well why don't you go to that board and ask those christian femists about it? you think feminism is important and that women are being opppressed, why not go ask some of them about it? And please read the other website too. If you think it's just an excuse (it was women i the early part of the century doing those studies, not just now after the victory of feminism) then why don't you read what they wrote and see what they thought about it?
PS Feel free to post your favorite sexist bible quote. [/B][/QUOTE]

Dr Rick

1 Peter 3: Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives...For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master...Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

Ephesians 5: Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Titus 2: Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

The given example of Sarah, who obeyed her husband and called him "Master" shows how women are to be submissive.

Of course, women may never have authority over men:

1 Timothy 2: A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

Should men learn in noise and confusion? If this was meant to be general advice on the optimal atmosphere for learning, the passage would have referred to "men" as well as "women."

Paul disobeyed a Biblical command, so what? That doesn't make the Bible any less sexist.

The Bible repeatedly tells women to submit to men, but does not command men to submit to women. It does not use examples of men obeying their wives and calling them "Master."

It provides rules for when a victim of rape must be stoned:

Deuteronomy 22 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her...saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,"...and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death...If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death-the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

If, for example, a woman doesn't cry-out while being raped in a town, or was raped by her father or someone else during childhood and is not a virgin when she marries, the Bible makes it clear that she is to be stoned to death.

Leviticus 19
19..
" 'Do not mate different kinds of animals.
" 'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
" 'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.
27 " 'Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
28 " 'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD .
Deuteronomy 22
9 Do not plant two kinds of seed in your vineyard; if you do, not only the crops you plant but also the fruit of the vineyard will be defiled. [1]
10 Do not plow with an ox and a donkey yoked together.
11 Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together.

You have to make an assumption that the Bible does not say what it really says to conclude that it is not sexist and demeaning.

Rick