Doubting Didymus

Although Abiogenesis has been discussed on a few threads, I would like to dedicate a thread to discussing the many actual theories of abiogenesis that exist, rather than whether theists think it occured.

I know that the abiogenesis 'thing' must be
1) simple enough to have occurred randomly
2) capable of producing copies of itself
3) susceptible to mutation.

Is there any kind of concensus as to what the 'thing' might have been? What are the most prominent theories?

DireStraits

I know that the abiogenesis 'thing' must be
1) simple enough to have occurred randomly

DS: Stop right there. As soon as I see the word "simple" I need to ask for a defintion of "simple". Oh, and that word "random".

Yeah, right. Random. Is water simple enough to have been formed randomly? Think of the odds of two gram atoms of hydrogen forming with one gram atom of oxygen to form one gram atom of water.

Just think of it! One gram atom of anything contains about 600,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 atoms! What are the chances of all of them combining through random processes? God must take care of every molecule of water! Water in evidence of intelligent design!

Doubting Didymus

What the bollocks are you talking about?
If the thing did not occur randomly then how?

Of course water is simple enough to occur randomly. You just need hydrogen to react with oxygen, and those are abundant elements.

What I mean by simple is that the thing was not a cell, or a string of DNA. It was simpler.

Please clarify yourself. What is your position on abiogenesis?

Hallucigenia

Believe it or not, <a href="http://www.pfmonline.net/transcripts.taf?_function=detail&ID=2523&Site=BPT& _UserReference=36E4117B556D70343CDBC8B7" target="_blank">it's been done</a>:

[corrected punctuation]

[ July 18, 2002: Message edited by: Hallucigenia ]</p>

WWSD

From the article posted by Hallucigenia:


Davis and Poe examine topics from the atomic structure of carbon to the shape of birds' beaks and from pollination to DNA. They point out the irreducible complexity and sheer beauty of all creation.


The sheer beauty of creation indeed!

Anyway, I'm going to shamlessly plug the thread I just started today.

See my thread for further discussion of ID and the beautiful complexity of life:


<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=001109" target="_blank">ID, parasitism, and the fall.</a>

Doubting Didymus

The only theories of abiogenesis that I have come across include such things as RNAs that can replicate themselves, or protiens that can do the same. I know very little about them as I have not read much about abiogenesis.

I so think that the formation of water was, in essence, entirely random. Hs bumping into Os at some time during he universe's history. I'm sure a chemist can demonstrate it.

IMO, basically its just another gap that theists can stick thier god in.

So,
What is a didymus?

It reminds me of the epididymis.

Blame that on my days TAing histology.

[ July 18, 2002: Message edited by: WWSD ]</p>

Doubting Didymus

I think Hallucigenia was being ironic. Weren't you? Hallucigenia? You were being ironic weren't you?

no, I dont think that its as much of a gap as theists would have us believe. I think that there are some very plausible and well constructed abiogenesis theories out there. I created this thread to encourage people to discuss some of them. One that I know of postulates that clay crystals, because they 'replicate' by layering, inherit traits like the shape, size and small imperfections from their 'parent' crystal. Thus they are a candidate for the kind of 'abiogenesis thing' that I am talking about.


Didymus is the name of Thomas the apostle, who refused to believe in christs ressurection without proof. I consider this a most sensible position to take. So my handle is a small play on the common saying 'doubting thomas'.

Dare I ask what WWSD stands for?

[edited my quotes]

[ July 18, 2002: Message edited by: Doubting Didymus ]</p>

Hallucigenia

Here is an article which discusses catalytic RNA as it pertains to abiogenesis:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/2948/orgel.html" target="_blank">The Origin of Life on Earth, by Leslie Orgel</a>

Heh. I was just demonstrating that even the hypothetical ID claims made by Dire Straits, outrageous though they may seem, weren't so hypothetical after all -- IDers really have advanced such a position as support for their "theories"!

Dr.GH

One reason I enjoy this BB is that there are a large number of scientifically literate people who are available to respond to BS like DireStraits's.

Do it good!

Doubting Didymus

Oh bloody hell, I thought DireStraits was being ironic too, wasn't he? Wasn't that just an incredulious hypothetical?

If so, direstraits, try one of these

It really helps confusion like this.

Dr.GH

Oh Oh. I guess it was irony.

My problem is that I argue with some cretos that would use a position near that post. Sorry