DarkBronzePlant

Most people probably hear "voices" in the manner described here; that is, they think in terms of words and sentences, and in their head, they can hear someone speaking those words and sentences (whether in their own voice, their angry mother's voice, etc)

Kind of like this. Pick one of these TV shows:

CHiPs
Silver Spoons
Family Ties

Now, quietly and to yourself, sing the theme song.

You had to conjure up the song in your head, didn't you? Did you actually hear the song?

Same goes with thinking and hearing voices. Being no psycologist myself, I would think there is quite a difference between what I would call "invited voices" and "uninvited voices." Invited voices would be those words that you caused yourself to think or "hear" (i.e. Amen-Moses' "Mirror, Indicator, Look over Shoulder, Mirror, Pull out") and would be similar to causing yourself to "hear" the CHiPs theme in your head. Uninvited voices would be the scary ones that we usually associate with people going on a mass killing spree then winding up in the funny farm.

Tying this into Existance of God, my guess is that most people experience "invited voices" all of the time. The difference between believers and atheists is that many "believers" confuse their invited voices with god speaking to them. For example, driving down the street, seeing a person stranded on the side of the road, and thinking to oneself, you should help that person. To an atheist, it's just the atheist's own thought, represented in his/her own head in the form of a voice. To a believer, it's god speaking to them and guiding them.

HelenM

As best I can tell, not having been inside someone else's head, that's a good description of what most believers mean when they say "God told me to" (I used to hear this at Charismatic churches) or "it seemed as if God wanted me to" (this is what they say at the church I am now).

Well, we don't know where it came from, do we, really?

Theologically speaking God doesn't speak to nonbelievers that way so therefore it is not God in their case. Theologically speaking it probably will be assumed to be God in the case of a believer.

(And yet it's very similar?! )

Isn't this what used to be called 'one's conscience' although we don't hear much about itt these days?

love
Helen

Mageth

Helen:

Sounds like God's into mind control.

How can a xian distinguish his own thoughts from those inserted by god? When I was a "believer," I had this problem, and it worried me. Finally it dawned on me that they were all my own thoughts. I don't think any differently now than when I was a xian.

Amos

Thomas Hardy has a nice poem on this called
"Voices from the Graveyard." In it he is actually pondering his own soul.

In the bible these voices are personified with Mary Magdalene who is the female with the carrot on a stick who gets part of her info from Mary theotokos.

The curse upon the serpent: "I will put emnity between you and the woman, between your offspring and hers; She will strike at your head while you will strike at his heel."

The woman here is the female that was taken from man (subconscious mind or soul of humans). The serpent here is Eve in the conscious mind of humans that motivates us (strikes at our heels)because woman from the subconscious mind strikes at her head (to motivate us). This means that we are determined creatures and do not have a free will.

Macbeth III.ii.13-17.
"We scorched the snake, not killed it.
She'll close and be herself, whilst our poor malice remains in danger of her former tooth."

Read on to line 37 where he laments his mind is full of scorpions instead of celestial fishes:
"O, full of scorpions is my mind, dear wife!"

The "scorched snake" remains after the incomplete catfight between Mary and Eve of the subconscious and conscious mind. It is idolized by so called born again Christians as a promise of eternal life that will never materialize because the snake will recoil and strike to reinforce the concept sin. Hence the "saved sinner complex" of born again Christians. Opposite this is the Catholic "Michael defeats the serpent imagery" and the statue of Mary with the serpent trampled underfoot called "Mary of Grace" until Crucifixion when the serpent is raised (recall of the apostels into the upper house (subconscious mind)) and the subsequent Coronation of Mary to indicate that from here on reason is placed subservient to intuition.

This would mean that there is no longer emnity between the serpent and woman wherefore Herod befriended Pilate in wait of the new leadership of the apostles in the mind of Christ Jesus (sorry for the jump-shift but I'll let it stand for now).

Amos

HelenM

Well, what can I say?

The truth will set you free, Jesus allegedly said...

Only you would know whether you are more free than you were.

As for not thinking differently, I suppose you are pointing out that rather than the "God" thoughts not being there now, you have decided they are in fact your own. Your internal world operates basically the same way, as it were. As best you can determine. Well, I consider that valid first-hand testimony. Years ago an ex-Christian wrote me his deconversion testimony and he candidly explained about that 'relabelling' process, that what he had thought was 'from God' he decided was his own thoughts after all. So I'm not surprised to read of you saying something very similar.

Of course (with all due respect) you do think differently in the sense that you reason differently, i.e. your conclusions about who originates your thoughts have changed.

love
Helen

Mageth

Of course (with all due respect) you do think differently in the sense that you reason differently, i.e. your conclusions about who originates your thoughts have changed.

Perhaps, but before deconverting, I never felt strongly that my thoughts were from god. In my *personal* theology, I came to believe we were free actors and that god may influence us, but our thoughts were very much our own. (Perhaps I wasn't a Real Christian (TM) ) As an atheist, I know our thoughts don't originate from god, but my thoughts no longer include god as an influence; since I don't believe she exists, I no longer have to be concerned what she may think about what I think, say or do.

HelenM

It would be hard to deny that increases your personal freedom, experientially.

Theologically speaking the only possibilities are that you are ruled by the god of this world or you are a slave to Christ. The terms are different in this passage but I think it's clear that in Paul's mind (assuming he wrote this) there are only these modes of existence, both of them slavery:

You maybe were aware of that already, though .

love
Helen

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]</p>

Mageth

Yup, I've read that before. Never did much cotton to being anyone's slave, though.

DarkBronzePlant

Nope. I should probably have thrown in that caveat; I don't presume to speak definitively for anyone else.
We hear about "conscience" ocassionally on these boards. Usually in the sense of "Where do you think man's conscience came from? From God, by God!"

HelenM

Well, who does?

However, if 'service' happens to be your spouse's 'love language' (and it often is for mothers), a little voluntary 'serving' can do wonders for one's marriage relationship...

Therefore I'd say, serving has its place in good relationships.

I hope jaliet won't be mad at me for taking this thread waaayyy off topic

love
Helen

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]</p>