Bree

of course this begs the ages-old question:

what is good? what is evil? is it a spectrum? a circle? are there definite answers?

BioBeing

I moved away from home - I moved form the UK to the US. [Just for fun, lets assume UK = Gods chosen path --> Go to heaven; and USA = becoming atheist and going to hell in a handbag.] Now while my Mother can accept that I made that choice, and she may know that I had reasons for doing so, do you think that she isn't at least a little bit sorry that, from time to time, she can't just pop in for a cup of tea? (PS we are a close family, and care very much for each other. I did not leave out of animosity).

My Mum may have tried to stop me ("witnessed at me"), and may keep sending me clippings on how much better life is in the UK ("telling me the Good News"). But I am here, and I have a family here, and a job, and I'm not going back. Should she then just say "oh, he's not family anymore" and forget me? Should she just let go of me without a single tear? Now imagine that we had no way to communicate, no phones, no planes, no email... sure we may forget each other after a couple of millenia, but it would not be easy. Could we do it with no tears?

More importantly for this analogy, could my Mum do it with no tears? I chose to leave my home and move to the States. But what about my Mum? She may always regret not having witnessed harder, not having prevented me getting on the airplane...


PS: to not "lament endlessly" suggests a short period of lamenting - sounds like tears in heaven to me.

And further: I do not chose to go to Hell. I disbelieve in Hell as much as I disbelieve in Heaven. And I disbelieve as much in an Islamic Heaven/Hell as I do in a Judeo-Christian or Viking one.

Magus55:But HOW would it be done? That is the question!

Magus55

If we knew that we would be God. Why is it so important to you to know how its done? God said it will be done. We trust God, therefore we don't dwell on how.

Darth Dane

Because with full understanding of how God and the world works, we will know that there was no other choice but for them to go to Hell,

No other choice? That takes away freewill. If I was Jesus, sat in heaven, had the power to forgive every human their sins, I would do it. I would not judge upon small or big sins, all shall be judged equally by the Eye of God, and Jesus doesn't want to judge you, because if he does, Jesus himself would be judged, (judge not lest thee be judged yourself) but Who judgeds God? Who can judge God? No-one but God self.
Even if Jesus was the son of God, he would still not judge us for our sins, because if he does, God will judge Jesus. Jesus doesn't want's to get judged?

Could it be?

Those in hell made that choice - and we will accept it.

No, I will not accept it, it is a cop-out by God and the angels, Buddha's idea of re-incarnation to free everybody, sounds better to me.

That and we will be at such peace and love surrounded by God, never to be separated again - we won't be thinking about the people who reject God. Relationships that we have on earth are broken in Heaven.

So because my sorry ass is in heaven, it's just tough luck for those who aren't there? Sounds elitist to me. Elite denotes judging between those who are elite and those who are not. But we shouldn't judge in the first place.

Wrong way to heaven

Those in Hell are no longer part of the family so you wouldn't love them like a family member.

Love thy enemy? Love thy neighbor? Turn the cheek?

What happened to those?

God said there is no sadness or tears in Heaven, and we will still have free will - therefore - however its done - those in Heaven will not be crying over those who rejected God

If there are no tears of pain, how can there be tears of pleasure? Or tears of Love?

When there is no sadness in heaven, every soul is in heaven, then and only then can we talk about no tears in heaven?...well at least if we go by this book.





DD - Love Spliff

hinduwoman

Actually one of the happiness in heaven is seeing sinners burn ---
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
"The blessed in the kingdom of heaven will see the punishment of the damned, in order that their bliss be more delightful for them."

Tertullian: De Spectaculis
"How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye? What there excites my admiration? What my derision? Which sight gives me joy? Which rouses me to exultation?--as I see so many illustrious monorachs, whose reception into the heavens was publically anouced, groaning now in the lowest darkness with great Jove himself, and those, too, who bore witness of their exultation; governers of provinces, too, who persecuted the Christian name, in fires more fierce than those with which in the days of their pride they raged against the followers of Christ. What world's wise men besides, the very philosophers, in fact, who taught their followers that God has no concern in aught that is sublunary, and were wont to assure them that either they had no souls, or that they would never return to the bodies which at death they had left, now covered with shame before the poor deluded ones, as one fire consumes them! Poets also, trembling not before the judgment seat of Rhadamanthus or Minos, but of the unexpected Christ! I shall have a better opportunity then of hearing the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; of viewing the play-actors, much more 'dissolute' in the disolving flame; of looking upon the charioteer. all glowing in his chariot of fire; of beholding the wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows; unless even then I shall not care to attend to such ministers of sin, in my eager wish rather to fix a gaze insatiable on those whose fury vented itself against the Lord....What quaester or priest in his munificence will bestow on you the favour of seeing and exulting in such thing as these?And yet even now we in a measure have them by faithin the picturings of imagination. But what are the things which eyes has not seen, ear has not heard, and which have not so much as dimly dawned upon the human heart? Whatever they are, they are nobler, I believe, than circus, and both theaters, and every race-course."

So of course you would be happy when you see your loved ones burn in hell; if you are not then it is proof you yourself belong in hell.
How many christians actually hold this view today?

Rhea

Magus, Longwinded - would really like a reply regarding my real-world situation.

So, should I force my Mother-in-Law to live with me where she can be cared for, or should I let her die of disease and starvation in her own home because that is where she wants to be and I have no right to force her to accept my love and care?

Please answer.

1. Leave her to die.
2. Force her to accept my love.

What's the christian thing to do?

Darth Dane

So, should I force my Mother-in-Law to live with me where she can be cared for, or should I let her die of disease and starvation in her own home because that is where she wants to be and I have no right to force her to accept my love and care?

Please answer.

1. Leave her to die.
2. Force her to accept my love.

What's the christian thing to do?

I would force Love on myself. I will keep offering Love to her, but she has to accept and choose this Love on her own, if the desire for Love isn't coming from within, it isn't free. If I decide for her, that she has to Love, the Love would not be a choice of her.

So I can't make others Love, I can keep on offering it to her.

As Jesus said, he didn't come for the righteous and sinless, he came for those no one else would Love.

Those no one else will Love is those who are with "sin" and the impure. He stayed with them until they chose Love as well, but Jesus didn't make them do it, he waited and waits until all chooses Love, and not out of fear of doing the wrong thing should we choose Love, but choose Love for Love





DD - Love Spliff

Cojana

Member Rhea, I'm sorry to see your print with such difficulty you have with your family member, my symphathys, , I don't see where you are asking advise as to what to do, you know what has to be done more then anyone on this board, good luck Rhea,..:banghead:

Rhea

Thanks, cojana. I appreciate your sympathy. Yes, I do know the RIGHT thing to do.

It sounds like you are saying it is wrong for me to remove her free will and "force my love on her", which is to say force her to accept my hospitality and care (and company).

Let's add a little twist. Still EXTREMELY relevant to the god thing.

She is capable of harming others. Her "independence" includes the insistence on driving.

Still think I should just "offer love and see if she takes it"?

Is this the RIGHT thing to do? Even though she doesn't always know what gear she's in when she presses the accelerator? Shall I assume that you will think I was doing the RIGHT THING if it is your wife or daughter or father that she crushes in the supermarket parking lot?

So, I should let her have her free will even if it means the deaths or maiming of others besides herself?







???

Your turn.

(And I'm still waiting for long-winded fool and Magus to verify that I'm not doing the Christian thing - or maybe I am.)

Darth Dane

It sounds like you are saying it is wrong for me to remove her free will and "force my love on her", which is to say force her to accept my hospitality and care (and company).

Yes, if she doesn't want it, why should you demand she receive?
Be ready to give if she asks.

She is capable of harming others. Her "independence" includes the insistence on driving.

Still think I should just "offer love and see if she takes it"?

Ultimately yes. If God offers us Love, but we insist on drinking and driving, killing and polluting, then God will not interfere, but if you ask for Love, God will give them, and as much as they ask for, as much they get. If you don't ask, you may not receive.

Could God want you to choose to accept Love, and only give it to you when yo ask?

Could God want you to ask, if you want Love or if you want hate/hell. Be carefull what you wish/ask for, you just might get it.

Is this the RIGHT thing to do? Even though she doesn't always know what gear she's in when she presses the accelerator? Shall I assume that you will think I was doing the RIGHT THING if it is your wife or daughter or father that she crushes in the supermarket parking lot?

If I want freewill and God exists, I must give God the freewill, to do as God pleases as well.
Love is freely given and freely taken. Offer Love freely, and let those who want your Love accept it.

So, I should let her have her free will even if it means the deaths or maiming of others besides herself?

I am sure, if someone dies, that God will review the situation, and offer Love to those who dies and lives.

If you want freedom, you must set everything else free.



Note: I don't know if God exists or not, the question was asked what would a christian do, and taking the bible as the word of God, I do my theorizing as to how a christian should behave given the knowledge we have for behaviour i teh bible.
It seems I have to include this bit every time, otherwise teh mod's consider it to be preaching, which isn't allowed, and I am not preaching, but theorizing.





DD - Love Spliff