GPLindsey

There is a significant flaw I've noticed in the widely known "Lord's Prayer" that begs a bit of impertinent scrutiny. Matthew 6, verse 13 states: "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (New International version)." The text of the prayer comes from the lips of Jesus himself.

But I'm puzzled. To lead someone into temptation is a bad thing, an evil thing. And God is incapable of evil. So why would Jesus (God) ask that people pray to God, to ask God to not commit an act of evil? Isn't it actually insulting to ask God to do something that he (or she) had no intention of doing anyway? Wouldn't just saying "Deliver us from the evil one" been sufficient?

Asking God to not lead you into temptation is like asking your local priest or minister, "Father, don't lead me to that brothel (or gambling hall, or drug den), lead me away from it!" It's his job to lead you away from it, so why begin the sentence with the nonsense request that he not lead you to it?

This unnecessary phrase injected into the Lord's Prayer suggests that Jesus was either misquoted, or it was drafted by someone who did not reflect on the wording as long as he should have. I've looked in vain in writings on apologetics for some discussion of this, so I'd be curious if anyone else has seen some discussion on this or has an opinion.

ex-preacher

The usual explanation is that "lead us not into temptation" actually means "lead us away from temptation." You're right - this is a long-recognized difficulty. However, considering the other mind-boggling rationalizations which the Bible requires, this one is pretty minor.

xoc

A lot of the LP refers to things "God will do anyway". "Your kingdom come, your will be done" etc. It is for man to enter into the mindframe of God's will and nature rather than bending God's arm to do something HE wouldn't want to do.

Wha? How? How does anyone know exactly what God has planned in this way, that way or the other?
Pray-er: "Give us day by day our daily bread."
God: "You dirty SOB! I already planned on doing that, but if you're going to be so rude...

In other words, no it's not insulting. And as you'll recall, Jesus was led by the Holy Spirit to be tempted 40 days and 40 nights by Satan. It is necessary that we will be tempted in the world, but it is never a desired thing.

pug846

So Jesus...was tempted...by the holy spirit...lets just think about that one for awhile.

*sigh*

Ernest Sparks

It is necessary that we will be tempted in the world

Does it make sense, then, that we should ask the Father to NOT lead us into temptation?
Maybe it means: not too much temptation, Lord, and not too much gratuitous EVIL (outside of temptation) either, please.

ex-preacher

A lot of the LP refers to things "God will do anyway". "Your kingdom come, your will be done" etc. It is for man to enter into the mindframe of God's will and nature rather than bending God's arm to do something HE wouldn't want to do.

Which brings us to a fundamental dilemma with the notion of prayer.
On the one hand, if God is going to do something anyway, what's the point of asking him. On the other hand, if God can be convinced by enough righteous people praying for the right thing in the right way, to change his mind, why wasn't he going to do the right thing in the first place? He can't be both omniscient and omnibenevolent, so take your pick:
1. He knows what to do, but he won't do it unless enough people ask him nicely (he's omniscient, but cruel).
2. He wants to do the right thing, but he doesn't know what to do until people tell him (he's omnibenevolent, but ignorant).

It sounds like a_theist is saying that prayer is to change people, not God. In that case, prayer does not affect God one or the other. Don't tell too many people that or they'll be no more prayer. It also contradicts numerous scriptures.

HelenM

I think it's acknowledging how helpless humans are, to say "lead me not into temptation". It's a statement of humility.

Contrast that with Christians who think they can rebuke the devil and get rid of all problems they struggle with....hmmmm...I wonder which is more Biblical...

Personally I am quite happy for Christians to be encouraged in the direction of having more humility so...I like it when they pray that way

love
Helen

ex-preacher

As with virtually every one of the 10,000 disputes within Christianity, both claims have biblical support. Exactly two chapters before the Lord's Prayer, Jesus had rebuked the devil and he fled.

Also, James 4:7 "Resist the devil and he will flee"

The Lord's Prayer is a great example of other problems in Xty. For one, it is rife with textual problems. You may recall the part about "thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen." It turns out that was a late addition and no longer appears in modern translations. Oops.

Another problem has to do with the variant version of the prayer in Luke 11:2-4. It has major differences with the version in Matthew. Furthermore, if you look at the textual footnotes in Luke, you'll see that in many manuscripts, the verses were altered to make Luke's version identical to Matthew's.

Finally, the Lord's Prayer illustrates the Argument from Confusion. After 2,000 years of study and debate many Christians still can't agree on what various parts of the prayer mean. Is "give us this day our daily bread" a petition or a thanksgiving? In my old church (Church of Christ) they are convinced that this prayer should not even be prayed since it asks for the kingdom to come and it already has come (on the Day of Pentecost). They would relegate much of what Jesus said as irrelevant to Christians since it ocurred under the Old Covenant (before Jesus' death).

BigJim

Isn't it also sacreligious to be asking for something in prayer? I think I've read here that prayer is supposed to only be for thanking Yahweh.

Is there biblical support for that position?

Or maybe I had a brain far and I'm making it all up. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Ernest Sparks

Isn't it also sacreligious to be asking for something in prayer?

Not according to the story of Jabez:

First Chronicles 4:9 And Jabez was more honourable than his brethren: and his mother called his name Jabez, saying, Because I bare him with sorrow.

First Chronicles 4:10 And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep [me] from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God granted him that which he requested.