anime

You're really not listening, are you.

You do know that other people are going to be reading this, don't you?

Toto

I've been reading this and waiting for a point to emerge.

This seems to be the apologists' way around the difficulties:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aiia/mustardseed.html

Is the Bible wrong to say that the mustard seed is the smallest? mistranslated? speaking only metaphorically or in hyperbole and we should all know what it means because its so obvious?

And do we even know what it means? Christiananswers seems to think that this is benign, the mustard tree is good, giving shelter to birds is good. But other interpretations give a darker picture.

The kingdom is like a weed that can take over and attract pests to your garden is one interpretation, since Palestinian farmers usual spend time shooing birds away from their fields. Another is here:

So tell me again how this is the inspired word of God, and why God couldn't do a better job of inspiring His writers and translators?

anime

Don't be too hard on Jeremy Planet. I've been waiting for his psuedo-reasonings to have a point to them as well.

Actually, though I am a Christian, I agree with the latter interpretation - that the mustard seed resembles a "bad thing".

It is followed by the parable of the leaven = sour dough, always used in a bad sense, as meal in a good sense. Therefore the common interpretation as to the Gospel's improving the world is the exact contrary of the leaven corrupting the whole of the meal.

It is this leaven, inserted by mankind, which is responsible for the corruption of the understanding of God's word.

Quite a coincidence that this parable would be criticized with this type of question.

There are 8 parables in Matt. 13, divided and explained in App. 145.

And, as I stated before, "Man has never made a proper use of God's gifts. God gave men the sun, moon, and stars for signs, and for seasons, to govern the day, and the night, and the years. But no one to-day can tell us what year (Anno Mundi) we are actually living in! In like manner God gave us His Word, but man, compassed with infirmity, has failed to preserve and transmit it faithfully.

The worst part of this is that man charges God with the result, and throws the blame on Him for all the confusuion due to his own want of care.

The Old Testament had from very early times official custodians of the Hebrew text. Its Guilds of Scribes, Nakdanim, Sopherim, and Massorites elaborated plans by which the original text has been preserved with the greatest possible care. But though, in this respect, it had advantages which the Greek text of the New Testament never had, it nevertheless shows many signs of human failure and infirmity. Man has only to touch anything to leave his mark upon it. "

But, be of good cheer. God promised a remnant that would keep the truth.

I really need to retire for the evening. I'll be back a short time tomorrow, then again on Monday. Doubtless you still have criticisms to bring forth.

anime

Again, I highly recommend seeing APP 145. It is a very short reading.

Not only does it agree with the interpretation of the "Mustard Tree" and the "Leaven" as being negative things, but in its explanaition of the last four parables, it answers your question as to why God would permit such a thing.

Jackalope

Don't let the fact that anime is a theist get in the way of actually reading and understanding this particular argument. He has a valid point that one must always look at writings in context, or you're not using the same standard of evidence you would for secular writings.

You can argue that the claim that the bible is perfect and inspired is false. However, you cannot argue that translations are often inaccurate and that ancient writings must be read with their historical context in mind.

Keep it honest, guys. Using cheap and sleazy arguments like the ones I've seen in this thread doesn't help the non-theist side at all.

Toto

Actually, I was trying to be hard on you, so I guess I need to be more explicit.

It appears that you think God is like an incompetant software designer from the 80's. He created a system that is a wonder in his own mind, and then blames the users when they can't read the manual correctly and can't get the system to work. Of course, the manual was outsourced to Elbonia and written in another language, and all we have now are xeroxes of xeroxes, with missing pages and important marginal notes in strange handwriting.

Is that it? And we should believe you for what reason?

How is it supposed to make me of good cheer that this bizarre God promised that a remnant would keep "the truth"?

Mark says that Jesus spoke in parables to keep his true meaning obscure. Later gospels claim that he explained everything to his disciples, but they seem to have forgotten to pass along what he meant, so Christians are still fighting about it among themselves. They can't even agree on whether mustard seeds growing into trees are a good image of the kingdom spreading and providing support, or a bad image of a weed taking over your garden and attracting freeloading birds who might be wicked priests, but in any case have to be chased away before they eat your crops and leave nothing but bird poop.

And we still can't agree on whether the mustard seeds are the "smallest" or just the smallest a Palestinian farmer might have seen, and what this means about the applicability of the sacred scriptures to those of us who aren't Palestinian farmers.

I guess that's more entertainment for the rest of us.

anime

Well, appearances can be deceiving.

No, that is not it.

Well, it is a common belief that God will send to "hell" everybody who does not know the truth.

This is false.

Everybody will have one chance to receive the truth. But what is often passed off as truth in churches is not the truth.

So when will all have a chance to receive the truth?

During the "millenium":

Ezek. 44:23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

While I find criticism based on ignorance disturbing, I think there's a funny side to it as well.

luvluv

Folks, you're really reaching at this point. If you don't believe, don't believe. You don't owe anybody an explanation.

But a mustard seed disproof is likely only to convince people that you are exceptionally silly.

Jeremy Pallant

Now I do think I made my point. Anime's remarks notwithstanding. I presented him/her/it with a similar sentence and requested an interpretation based upon the logic he/she/it had applied to an awkward statement made by Jesus. Anime proceeded to wriggle and squirm, which was my intent, and refused to do as I requested. I simply pursued those wrigglings as far as they led me. I apologise if in doing so I disrupted the thread.

I would also like to point out that anime is very rude, and cannot be bothered to properly quote my name. Very unChristian of you, anime. My name is Jeremy Pallant. I have not abused your name. Grant me the same courtesy.

anime

Perhaps I have not worded myself correctly.

If I tried applying the logic to the question you gave me, I would probably come up with the wrong comclusion.

Bearing in mind, that it is fallacious to apply an ancient literary text containing a Figure of Speech, to a standard, modern English sentance.

If you wish to label this documentation as "wriggle"ing and "squirm"ing, you are free to do so.

But it does not prove me wrong, nor will it cause you to save face.

I will be satisfied to allow the readers to decide.