Freethought & Rationalism Archive

scigirl · 04-19-2003, 08:45 PM

I just returned from watching the newest IMAX feature about Jane Goodall and chimps. It was a good show - I recommend it. I wanted to point out a couple of aspects of chimp behavior that I thought were relevant to evolution:

1) Chimps are highly territorial. There is hard evidence that chimp tribes have actually gone to war over land. They can be quite brutal in the process, and have even resorted to cannibalism of the losing tribe.

2) Chimps have rudimentary tool skills which appear to be entirely learned behavior, not innate. In addition to using tools, different tribes have what may be termed as unique 'rituals.' For instance, utilizing a certain plant to rub on the body, certain hand motions are done before using sticks in termite nests, and of course the infamous rain dances.

3) Chimps are highly social creatures and do have some type of family structure. However, relatedness does not appear to be sacred - brothers have fought bitterly with each other for control of the tribe.

Sounds like traits of another primate species I have heard of, especially unfortunately #1.

scigirl

sensate · 04-19-2003, 11:57 PM

It has been said that since humans and chimps are so close genetically the main differences between us and them are cultural.

lpetrich · 04-20-2003, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sensate
It has been said that since humans and chimps are so close genetically the main differences between us and them are cultural.

However, the physical differences are very noticeable. And there was a paper in Science magazine in the mid-1980's that described a comparison of human and chimp skeletons with the measurements usually used for frog skeletons -- and the human-chimp relative difference was larger than the biggest frog one. And frogs have been diverging since the Jurassic!

Also, chimps are far behind us in language comprehension and generation. Is there any evidence that they can understand or generate even the simple sentence structure of <subject><verb><object> ?

Monkeybot · 04-20-2003, 07:09 AM

IIRC Kanzi the bonobo (and yeah, I know it's a different species) has shown some remarkable language comprehension.

Quote:

Kanzi has been presented with a variety of carefully controlled tests which demonstrate his comprehension of speech. In these tests, spoken words are presented through headphones and Kanzi is requested to indicate either the real object, the photo, or the lexigram that the word represents. He is essentially 100% accurate on all words that are a part of his vocabulary at any given age. He is able to respond to speakers with accents of many varieties as well as to synthesized speech with only minimal decline in accuracy. Kanzi is the first ape to demonstrate real comprehension of spoken speech. This claim has been made for other apes, but comprehension in these apes has not been systematically tested or demonstrated in controlled tests. No apes, other than Kanzi, Panbanisha and Panzee have been shown to pass tests in which spoken English is presented through headphones and they are requested to select the written symbols that represent the spoken word as well as the object that represent the spoken word.

I don't know if there have been any "Kanzi-debunkers" around... if not, it's a pretty incredible little story. Of course, bonobos aren't quite on the level of humans -- I believe Knzi compared to a toddler in language comprehension -- and more notable is the fact that they apparently haven't developed language symbols on their own.

PS - scigirl - I would've loved to see the Jane Goodall IMAX! You're so lucky to be near a theater!

RufusAtticus · 04-20-2003, 07:53 PM

I'm just waiting for an IMAXXX theatre to open up in a red-light district.

scigirl · 04-20-2003, 08:22 PM

Ha Ha rufus!

Could you just imagine the size of the . .. credits?

scigirl

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04-19-2003, 08:45 PM	#1
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	Jane Goodall IMAX movie I just returned from watching the newest IMAX feature about Jane Goodall and chimps. It was a good show - I recommend it. I wanted to point out a couple of aspects of chimp behavior that I thought were relevant to evolution: 1) Chimps are highly territorial. There is hard evidence that chimp tribes have actually gone to war over land. They can be quite brutal in the process, and have even resorted to cannibalism of the losing tribe. 2) Chimps have rudimentary tool skills which appear to be entirely learned behavior, not innate. In addition to using tools, different tribes have what may be termed as unique 'rituals.' For instance, utilizing a certain plant to rub on the body, certain hand motions are done before using sticks in termite nests, and of course the infamous rain dances. 3) Chimps are highly social creatures and do have some type of family structure. However, relatedness does not appear to be sacred - brothers have fought bitterly with each other for control of the tribe. Sounds like traits of another primate species I have heard of, especially unfortunately #1. scigirl

04-19-2003, 11:57 PM	#2
sensate Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: midwest Posts: 438	It has been said that since humans and chimps are so close genetically the main differences between us and them are cultural.

04-20-2003, 07:53 PM	#5
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	I'm just waiting for an IMAXXX theatre to open up in a red-light district.

04-20-2003, 08:22 PM	#6
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	Ha Ha rufus! Could you just imagine the size of the . .. credits? scigirl

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