Freethought & Rationalism Archive

triplew00t · 08-04-2003, 11:07 AM

Gah. I went to Paganism because I was hoping to find some people who thought out their religion. What I find (with respect to those on this board who are pagan and DO think) is generally a bunch of the same type as Christians. They all want to believe the irrational, but are even more of a pain in the ass because they wont even declare what they believe. Its always "the path is up to the individual" or some other such trite nonsense. If it is real, then it is true. If it is true, it is universal and not varying based on what I think of it. All truths must, by definition, exclude that which is untrue, that which is other than them. So, yet again, I am disgusted with religion. Back to my Philosophical Taoism, Zen and Atheism, I suppose.

A very disgruntled Nero

emotional · 08-04-2003, 12:19 PM

Do you know exactly what you're looking for? You said you didn't mind gods, only the afterlife, but that's all about it. Why is plain vanilla atheism dissatisfying to you? I only want to help...

triplew00t · 08-04-2003, 01:12 PM

Hard to say what I am looking for. Its just that all three possibilities for an afterlife, I hate. I do NOT want to live forever in another world. I do NOT want to come back to this world. And I do NOT want to cease to exist, atleast at nature's choice of time. Its trouble finding something that is an alternative to these 3. The closest I have come to is Nishijima style Zen without reincarnation, or philosophical Taoism. Both have a view of death that is definately not reincarnation, nor an afterlife in another world, but its not exactly ceasing to exist either. Maybe a primitive paganism based on pantheism (panentheism)? I'm not sure myself. I just wish I actually prefered one afterlife belief (or lack of). As it is, I select one (reincarnation, afterlife, no afterlife) and I am satisfied for a day, then want another version, get it, am satisfied for a day, then want yet another. I am SICK of this switching. It makes my whole life on shakey ground. I wish I could be satisfied with one view of what happens upon death. For some reason I cannot.

If I was to die by my own hand, at a predestined time, I would prefer no afterlife. If I was to die at random, and know that I am dying, I would like to have a chance to tie up loose ends, either in another life or another world. Curious to actually try and figure it all out. I greatly fear dying by natural causes (cancer, heart attack, pneumonia, etc.), but could really care less about accidents and suicide. As long as my death is sudden (so that I either dont know that I am dying) or by my hand (so I can be in control), I am fine with it, more or less. But a wasting death, one that I am not in control of, one that can take me when I least want it to. THAT I fear very much.

Maybe my problem is that I am trying to choose what I believe based on what I WANT to believe and not based on what appears to be true. If I was to choose based on what appears to be true, I would have to say there is no afterlife, despite what so many claim about contact with the dead. It is hard to do this though as my girlfriend as of now believes she has this ability. So either she is mistaken or I am wrong about death being the end of existance. This added emotional involvement makes it even harder to choose, as I dont want to think shes delusional.

A perplexed Nero

Calzaer · 08-04-2003, 01:32 PM

Quote:

f it is real, then it is true. If it is true, it is universal and not varying based on what I think of it. All truths must, by definition, exclude that which is untrue, that which is other than them.

If you're looking for The Truth(tm), you're going to die in lonely dispair. NOBODY has The Truth(tm). The Pagans know nobody has The Truth(tm). Everyone might have a little bit of The Truth(tm), but it's purely by accident. Pagans acknowledge that other peoples' paths probably have a bit of The Truth(tm) in them. We're not going to commit the "WE'RE RIGHT AND YOU'RE ALL GONNA BURRRRRRN!" hypocrisy. If that's what you're looking for, stick to Christianity or Islam.

emotional · 08-04-2003, 01:58 PM

Having The Truth (TM) isn't a monopoly of Christians and Muslims alone. Atheists too think they have the one and only truth. And they loudly and proudly declare that all who think otherwise (theists) are deluded, ie in error.

gsx1138 · 08-04-2003, 06:05 PM

What exactly did you expect? Paganism is not a: We'll lead you by the hand religion. If you want to find out if it is for you then you have to get yourself involved. I do think all paths have some Truth (TM) in them. Most Pagans shun Christianity because they don't want to be told what they are "required" to believe. I chose paganism because it fit with me. I don't give a shit if anyone else believes in it because my beliefs don't need to be reinforced by others.
It sounds to me like Pantheism is the way to go for you. I believe in an Afterlife because of my NDE. Does that do you any good? No. You're not going to get Pagans to proselytize to you at your door. The reason for that is the very thing you're complaining about. Often times people in the same coven share different views about what to believe.

Ojuice5001 · 08-04-2003, 07:05 PM

Do you mean me? I believe things that, from the assumptions of the Enlightenment I reject, are irrational. But I try to do my best to make my explanations of my beliefs have just as much intellectual content as Christian or materialist statements. (I have a few mystical ideas, but my thinking is, the world has enough mysticism. What it needs is for someone to defend polytheism.) I definitely think of my beliefs as objectively true, though they are not universally true, since different gods rule over different parts of the world at different times.

Also, since so few pagans have come here, you've got to figure that the ones here aren't a representative sample. What you're saying of pagans in general is true to a large degree, but there are exceptions, and there's no particular reason to think you'd find a lot of them among the handful of pagan posters here.

tribalbeeyatch · 08-04-2003, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional
Having The Truth (TM) isn't a monopoly of Christians and Muslims alone. Atheists too think they have the one and only truth. And they loudly and proudly declare that all who think otherwise (theists) are deluded, ie in error.

Hey, be careful where you are painting with that broad brush, emotional. Beyond pointing out contradictions between a particular theist's proclamations on the Nature of Reality (TM) and reality as I see it, I don't see how I (an atheist) can be fairly smeared with this tar, if even then. I mean, The Truth (TM) is usually reserved for a certain type of knowledge, one that is immune from rational exploration or even honest questions at all. And let me also say, in regards to the flack that you may receive personally on IIDB, that a fideist such as yourself will get no grief from the likes of me.

Infidelettante · 08-04-2003, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by triplew00t
Gah. I went to Paganism because I was hoping to find some people who thought out their religion.

Yet I offered to talk on the PM section of IIDB and you did not respond. Perhaps you require real time for some reason rather than the more sedate and thoughtful Private Messages. I am still more than willing to answer any questions you have.

Quote:

What I find (with respect to those on this board who are pagan and DO think) is generally a bunch of the same type as Christians. They all want to believe the irrational, but are even more of a pain in the ass because they wont even declare what they believe.

You are correct, we do not easily give up what is so difficult to obtain.

The Pagan religions are irrational. As are all religions. Do you expect to find a rational religion? I don�t think you will succeed.

What I hold as true is irrational. It is not reasonable. It is not logical. I wouldn�t have it otherwise. I am not selfish, I will help you as much as I can.

Quote:

Its always "the path is up to the individual" or some other such trite nonsense. If it is real, then it is true. If it is true, it is universal and not varying based on what I think of it. All truths must, by definition, exclude that which is untrue, that which is other than them. So, yet again, I am disgusted with religion. Back to my Philosophical Taoism, Zen and Atheism, I suppose.

A very disgruntled Nero

�They� are right, you must find your own path. You must make your own journey. This is not an easy religion. It requires determination, patience, and desire. It would do you no good to make it easy.

I do not speak for others but I define truth as �what works.� Paganism works for me and so for me it is true. Your truth will differ. Paganism is first and always an inward journey. You must be willing to spend a lot of time learning who you really are. Of course this is so of all religions when done well. Paganism is different because there is no road map. There is no Bible. There is no revelation. You must do it all yourself.

You will find others who, like me will offer help but there is none who can or would do it for you. We are not like that. We have a strong aversion to proselytization . We will not induce others, no matter how willing, to accept our religion.

You surely understand that many are attracted to Paganism and witchcraft for reasons that have nothing to do with spiritual growth. It is the rare one who finds what he needs with us and stays. I will leave a message for you in Private Messages.

JT

Calzaer · 08-04-2003, 09:12 PM

Quote:

What I hold as true is irrational. It is not reasonable. It is not logical. I wouldn?t have it otherwise.

Holy shit, JT... that's beautiful. I wanna be that mature about my own irrationality when I grow up.

08-04-2003, 11:07 AM	#1
triplew00t Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 141	Disgusted with New Agers and Pagans now too Gah. I went to Paganism because I was hoping to find some people who thought out their religion. What I find (with respect to those on this board who are pagan and DO think) is generally a bunch of the same type as Christians. They all want to believe the irrational, but are even more of a pain in the ass because they wont even declare what they believe. Its always "the path is up to the individual" or some other such trite nonsense. If it is real, then it is true. If it is true, it is universal and not varying based on what I think of it. All truths must, by definition, exclude that which is untrue, that which is other than them. So, yet again, I am disgusted with religion. Back to my Philosophical Taoism, Zen and Atheism, I suppose. A very disgruntled Nero

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08-04-2003, 12:19 PM	#2
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	Do you know exactly what you're looking for? You said you didn't mind gods, only the afterlife, but that's all about it. Why is plain vanilla atheism dissatisfying to you? I only want to help...

08-04-2003, 01:12 PM	#3
triplew00t Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 141	Hard to say what I am looking for. Its just that all three possibilities for an afterlife, I hate. I do NOT want to live forever in another world. I do NOT want to come back to this world. And I do NOT want to cease to exist, atleast at nature's choice of time. Its trouble finding something that is an alternative to these 3. The closest I have come to is Nishijima style Zen without reincarnation, or philosophical Taoism. Both have a view of death that is definately not reincarnation, nor an afterlife in another world, but its not exactly ceasing to exist either. Maybe a primitive paganism based on pantheism (panentheism)? I'm not sure myself. I just wish I actually prefered one afterlife belief (or lack of). As it is, I select one (reincarnation, afterlife, no afterlife) and I am satisfied for a day, then want another version, get it, am satisfied for a day, then want yet another. I am SICK of this switching. It makes my whole life on shakey ground. I wish I could be satisfied with one view of what happens upon death. For some reason I cannot. If I was to die by my own hand, at a predestined time, I would prefer no afterlife. If I was to die at random, and know that I am dying, I would like to have a chance to tie up loose ends, either in another life or another world. Curious to actually try and figure it all out. I greatly fear dying by natural causes (cancer, heart attack, pneumonia, etc.), but could really care less about accidents and suicide. As long as my death is sudden (so that I either dont know that I am dying) or by my hand (so I can be in control), I am fine with it, more or less. But a wasting death, one that I am not in control of, one that can take me when I least want it to. THAT I fear very much. Maybe my problem is that I am trying to choose what I believe based on what I WANT to believe and not based on what appears to be true. If I was to choose based on what appears to be true, I would have to say there is no afterlife, despite what so many claim about contact with the dead. It is hard to do this though as my girlfriend as of now believes she has this ability. So either she is mistaken or I am wrong about death being the end of existance. This added emotional involvement makes it even harder to choose, as I dont want to think shes delusional. A perplexed Nero

08-04-2003, 01:58 PM	#5
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	Having The Truth (TM) isn't a monopoly of Christians and Muslims alone. Atheists too think they have the one and only truth. And they loudly and proudly declare that all who think otherwise (theists) are deluded, ie in error.

08-04-2003, 06:05 PM	#6
gsx1138 Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Bremerton, Washington Posts: 379	What exactly did you expect? Paganism is not a: We'll lead you by the hand religion. If you want to find out if it is for you then you have to get yourself involved. I do think all paths have some Truth (TM) in them. Most Pagans shun Christianity because they don't want to be told what they are "required" to believe. I chose paganism because it fit with me. I don't give a shit if anyone else believes in it because my beliefs don't need to be reinforced by others. It sounds to me like Pantheism is the way to go for you. I believe in an Afterlife because of my NDE. Does that do you any good? No. You're not going to get Pagans to proselytize to you at your door. The reason for that is the very thing you're complaining about. Often times people in the same coven share different views about what to believe.

08-04-2003, 07:05 PM	#7
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	Do you mean me? I believe things that, from the assumptions of the Enlightenment I reject, are irrational. But I try to do my best to make my explanations of my beliefs have just as much intellectual content as Christian or materialist statements. (I have a few mystical ideas, but my thinking is, the world has enough mysticism. What it needs is for someone to defend polytheism.) I definitely think of my beliefs as objectively true, though they are not universally true, since different gods rule over different parts of the world at different times. Also, since so few pagans have come here, you've got to figure that the ones here aren't a representative sample. What you're saying of pagans in general is true to a large degree, but there are exceptions, and there's no particular reason to think you'd find a lot of them among the handful of pagan posters here.

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