Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Theli · 04-29-2002, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Boone K. Lowe:


Are you saying there was nothing before the bang? The notion I always heard was that the universe is constantly expanding until it reaches a point where it starts to contract on itself, thus hurtling us towards another big bang.

Actually, tests on radiation in the universe shows that the universe is ever expanding.
When it comes to to big bang, another universe might have existed before. It's not by any means impossible (since our own exists).
But I'm against the notion of eternity all together, it brings alot of problems.

Quote:

Maybe I'm just showing my age.

Is that old or young age?

04-29-2002, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Boone K. Lowe:
I am a Christian, and I believe that Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the Life." I believe that He sits at God's right hand and prepares a place in Heaven for me and all others that call on His name. I am more than willing to share God's word with anyone who will listen. However, I will not, nor should I have to, defend my faith, because it is just that - MY faith.

When the day of judgement comes, I will fall on my face at the overwhelming feeling of unworthiness to be in th presence of God. Though, unworthy as I may be, I have been made clean by the blood of Jesus, and I shall live for eternity.

I really have to question the sanity of theists when I read this kind of tripe.

Theli · 04-29-2002, 10:16 AM

Boone K. Lowe...

Quote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I know you will,

Yeah, that's what we do here.

Quote:

, but everyone has one of two beliefs.

Huge generalization (damn word).

Quote:

Either you believe in an eternal being (God), or you believe in eternal matter (evolution). The world is littered with people trying to convince other people that their view is right.

Yes, that's wrong. Personal beliefs should not be forced upon someone. It can be discussed though.

Quote:

The main problem is that there is no real proof for either one of these ideas. Proof, defined as an adjective, means impervious or invulnerable. Neither one of these ideologies fit the bill.

What proof are you expecting?
Before you say that no proof exists for/against god's existence you must ask yourself what kind of proof would be sufficient. To sitt and discuss solid proof is futile. You should rather compare whatever evidence/theories that exists and make a decision accordingly.

Quote:

Since we are not all scientists, should we just take their word for it?

This is the worst part, people's ignorance. The fact that they have to "take someone's word for it" without even considering their "word".

Quote:

However, it has also been "proven" that the presence of a mere observer can skew the results of an experiment.

Are you reffering to Quantum Physics? Funny that you should mention it, if an observer casue the collapse the wave function then why doesn't the omniscient god do the so?

Quote:

Therefore, we cannot and should not take their word for any "scientific fact" unless it makes sense and means something to us.

You mention an extremely small part of our scientific knowledge. Do you think a lightbulb wouldn't work if electrons didn't "make sense or means something to us"?
Do you think you would be sitting at a computer right now discussing religion with people on the other side of the planet is scientific facts can't be trusted?
The universe was not created by humans so it was not made for us to understand, but we do what we can.

Quote:

Belief in an eternal being is the same thing. Theists would have us look around at the glory and the splendor of the earth and all of it's inhabitants and say, without a doubt, this had to be the work of a divine creator.

I never understood this, why must something big/beautiful/majestic be engineered by a creator? Did god also require a divine creator? Does this mean that god is not glorious?

Quote:

I am a Christian, and I believe that Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the Life." I believe that He sits at God's right hand and prepares a place in Heaven for me and all others that call on His name.

One reason I don't like religions such as christianity, they prey on human fear/hope. If you obey/believes/has faith is someone or something you'll get rewarded in the afterlife. If you don't get the reward you can't complain anyway because you're dead.

Quote:

When the day of judgement comes, I will fall on my face at the overwhelming feeling of unworthiness to be in th presence of God.

Nice afterlife... An eternity of feeling unworthy, I'd rather be dead then.
In heaven your body is free while your mind is in chains.
In hell your body is in chains yet your mind is free.
Anyway, moving on...

Quote:

The question that I must pose to all who read this is: If living a TRUE Christian life means treating people kind, believing that there is a God who cares for me when no one else does, respecting my family and the governing authorities, etc., what's going to happen to me when I die? If I'm wrong, then I'll be put in a box and buried and that will be the end of me. But, if I'm right, then great will be my reward in Heaven.
On the other hand, what if I didn't believe and live the Christian life? If I were right, then I would be put in a box and buried and that would be the end of me. But if I were wrong, look what I would lose out on.

Pascal's Wager, huh?
The religion that can scare/tempt you the most deserves your belief.

I might give the impression of being hot tempered here. If so, I'm sorry. It's not directed at you.

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: Theli ]

southernhybrid · 04-29-2002, 10:21 AM

Let me put it simply for you, Boone. Most atheists were former theists, many here former Xians at one time. We don't believe because we have inguisitive minds, searched for evidence of god but found none. The longer we searched, the more convinced we become that there is no god. We just think it makes a lot more sense that we live in a natural world, and that supernatural beings do not exist. Once we arrive at that conclusion, we are just as sure that we are right as you are about your beliefs. We don't have all the answers but we've moved past the unfounded, even primitive belief that there is a god. Some people feel their beliefs give them a feeling of security. As long as they are tolerant of my beliefs, I am tolerant of their beliefs. So, Why is it so hard to believe? Because it is hard to believe something that makes no sense and has no evidence to back it up.

Here's a more eloquent piece in regards to science from the late scientist Carl Sagan:

Quote:

We insist on independent and to the extent possible quantitative verification of proposed tenets of belief. We are constantly prodding, challenging, seeking contradictions, or small persistent residual errors, proposing alternative explanations, encouraging heresy. We give our highest rewards to those who convincingly disprove established beliefs.

Regarding religion he goes on to say:

Quote:

Which leaders of the major faiths acknowledge that their beliefs might be erroneous and establish institutes to uncover possible doctrinal deficiencies? What sermons even handedly examine the God hypotheis? What rewards are religious skeptics given by the established religions--or, for that matter social or economic skeptics by the society in which they swim?

( excerpt taken from, 32-34 of The Demon Haunted World )

I don't expect you to change your worldview but maybe this will help you understand how we atheists have arrived at ours.

Theli · 04-29-2002, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by atheist_in_foxhole:


I really have to question the sanity of theists when I read this kind of tripe.

I don't think you can count someone as being insane for hoping for an afterlife. Fear of being dead is a very common human fear.
If you can calm that fear in any way, then I say it's a good thing. Too bad many religions takes advantage of this.

Personally I (being an atheist) am not completely certain about the nonexistence of life after death.

Boone K. Lowe · 04-29-2002, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Let me put it simply for you, Boone. Most atheists were former theists, many here former Xians at one time. We don't believe because we have inguisitive minds, searched for evidence of god but found none. The longer we searched, the more convinced we become that there is no god. We just think it makes a lot more sense that we live in a natural world, and that supernatural beings do not exist. Once we arrive at that conclusion, we are just as sure that we are right as you are about your beliefs. We don't have all the answers but we've moved past the unfounded, even primitive belief that there is a god. Some people feel their beliefs give them a feeling of security. As long as they are tolerant of my beliefs, I am tolerant of their beliefs. So, Why is it so hard to believe? Because it is hard to believe something that makes no sense and has no evidence to back it up.
Here's a more eloquent piece in regards to science from the late scientist Carl Sagan:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We insist on independent and to the extent possible quantitative verification of proposed tenets of belief. We are constantly prodding, challenging, seeking contradictions, or small persistent residual errors, proposing alternative explanations, encouraging heresy. We give our highest rewards to those who convincingly disprove established beliefs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding religion he goes on to say:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which leaders of the major faiths acknowledge that their beliefs might be erroneous and establish institutes to uncover possible doctrinal deficiencies? What sermons even handedly examine the God hypotheis? What rewards are religious skeptics given by the established religions--or, for that matter social or economic skeptics by the society in which they swim?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

( excerpt taken from, 32-34 of The Demon Haunted World )
I don't expect you to change your worldview but maybe this will help you understand how we atheists have arrived at ours.

Thank you southernhybrid for the insight. I mainly put this out not to persuade anyone, but to find out where I needed to increase in my own knowledge so that my belief might be strengthened. As far as atheists go, please don't think that I see them as any less than Christians or any other religion. I may disagree, but I still respect all of the views I have seen here.

Jayhawker Soule · 04-29-2002, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Boone K. Lowe:
I mainly put this out not to persuade anyone, but to find out where I needed to increase in my own knowledge so that my belief might be strengthened.

Instead, why not increase your knowledge and then believe in the results?

Theli · 04-29-2002, 11:23 AM

Boone K. Lowe:
I mainly put this out not to persuade anyone, but to find out where I needed to increase in my own knowledge so that my belief might be strengthened.

ReasonableDoubt:
Instead, why not increase your knowledge and then believe in the results?

Theli:
Excacly, you should not persue knowledge just to strenghten that wich you already know. You should also question it.

Ron Singh · 04-29-2002, 11:53 PM

I for one am here to stregnthen my faith as well. At first when I questioned my theism, I was depressed and lingering in it. I then decided to check out atheism, to see what the atheists beleived and why. I then saw what proof theists had. I am still a theist, and am as strong as ever. Having a rational religion helps, but most of all, having a rational mind helps most. That "Albert Caprianni" post by Jaliet probably helped the most. Other theists like Amos and Tercel remind me of the reason I have to beleive. Most discussion around here involves Xian ideas, they don't pertain to me. Nevertheless, I find that I learn something new every day. I am very faithful in God, now all I have to do is start practicing what I preach. Thanks a bunch.

Ender · 04-30-2002, 12:35 AM

the Sikh
I like Albert and Amos, can't say much for Toyota, but they failed to convince me with their ad hoc rationalizations on their belief in God that amounted to nothing more than inconsistent and sloppy thinking.

For starters, I admire the fideism of Kierkegaard- precisely because a belief in God is entirely private, personal, and requires an irrational leap of faith. But OTOH, the characteristics of the person making the leap also comes in play and is the major factor why i am incredulous on the necessity for a leap.

What are your rational reasons for believing in a God, especially the Sikhism brand?

I'd be overjoyed to hear it.

~WiGGiN~

[ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: Ender ]

04-30-2002, 12:35 AM	#30
Ender Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Lusitania Colony Posts: 658	the Sikh I like Albert and Amos, can't say much for Toyota, but they failed to convince me with their ad hoc rationalizations on their belief in God that amounted to nothing more than inconsistent and sloppy thinking. For starters, I admire the fideism of Kierkegaard- precisely because a belief in God is entirely private, personal, and requires an irrational leap of faith. But OTOH, the characteristics of the person making the leap also comes in play and is the major factor why i am incredulous on the necessity for a leap. What are your rational reasons for believing in a God, especially the Sikhism brand? I'd be overjoyed to hear it. ~WiGGiN~ [ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: Ender ]</p>

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

04-29-2002, 11:23 AM	#28
Theli Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,567	Boone K. Lowe: I mainly put this out not to persuade anyone, but to find out where I needed to increase in my own knowledge so that my belief might be strengthened. ReasonableDoubt: Instead, why not increase your knowledge and then believe in the results? Theli: Excacly, you should not persue knowledge just to strenghten that wich you already know. You should also question it.

04-29-2002, 11:53 PM	#29
Ron Singh Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Fremont, CA Posts: 163	I for one am here to stregnthen my faith as well. At first when I questioned my theism, I was depressed and lingering in it. I then decided to check out atheism, to see what the atheists beleived and why. I then saw what proof theists had. I am still a theist, and am as strong as ever. Having a rational religion helps, but most of all, having a rational mind helps most. That "Albert Caprianni" post by Jaliet probably helped the most. Other theists like Amos and Tercel remind me of the reason I have to beleive. Most discussion around here involves Xian ideas, they don't pertain to me. Nevertheless, I find that I learn something new every day. I am very faithful in God, now all I have to do is start practicing what I preach. Thanks a bunch.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.