Boone K. Lowe

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I know you will, but everyone has one of two beliefs. Either you believe in an eternal being (God), or you believe in eternal matter (evolution). The world is littered with people trying to convince other people that their view is right. The main problem is that there is no real proof for either one of these ideas. Proof, defined as an adjective, means impervious or invulnerable. Neither one of these ideologies fit the bill.

Eternal matter, to start with, is said to be proven by science. Since we are not all scientists, should we just take their word for it? These scientists have conducted experiments that, they say beyond a shadow of a doubt prove one thing or another. However, it has also been "proven" that the presence of a mere observer can skew the results of an experiment. Therefore, we cannot and should not take their word for any "scientific fact" unless it makes sense and means something to us.

Belief in an eternal being is the same thing. Theists would have us look around at the glory and the splendor of the earth and all of it's inhabitants and say, without a doubt, this had to be the work of a divine creator. Evolution does not make sense, they would say, because there are too many examples of animals that would not be alive today if it were true (the bombadier beetle, for one). There are some historical and archaeological truths to the Bible. The problem is, that means that science, in some cases, backs up theology. According to my previous paragraph, that would make even less sense. Again, all we can do is accept what makes sense and means something to us.

I am a Christian, and I believe that Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the Life." I believe that He sits at God's right hand and prepares a place in Heaven for me and all others that call on His name. I am more than willing to share God's word with anyone who will listen. However, I will not, nor should I have to, defend my faith, because it is just that - MY faith.

When the day of judgement comes, I will fall on my face at the overwhelming feeling of unworthiness to be in th presence of God. Though, unworthy as I may be, I have been made clean by the blood of Jesus, and I shall live for eternity.

The question that I must pose to all who read this is: If living a TRUE Christian life means treating people kind, believing that there is a God who cares for me when no one else does, respecting my family and the governing authorities, etc., what's going to happen to me when I die? If I'm wrong, then I'll be put in a box and buried and that will be the end of me. But, if I'm right, then great will be my reward in Heaven.
On the other hand, what if I didn't believe and live the Christian life? If I were right, then I would be put in a box and buried and that would be the end of me. But if I were wrong, look what I would lose out on.

Just a thought....okay, a few thoughts.

jj

Whoa. Stop right there. I conclude that no god exists, because of the utter lack of evidence in any testable, falsifiable, confirmable form.

I do not conclude or believe in "eternal matter", which would be contradicted by "big bang" cosmology, by the existance (if shown) of black holes, and by many other scientific theories or theories vying for the approval of science. Evolution is not a theory of how life or matter came to be, rather how matter that was already primitive life became complex life. So I have no idea how you arrived at the exercise of the excluded middle you did, but it's a fallacy, and it also confutes cosmology, evolution and biogenesis.

So, no, you've set up a really bad example of the excluded middle there, and one that does not describe very many people at all. I haven't gotten to the rest of your article yet

Eudaimonist

Oh, no! Not <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/wager.html" target="_blank">Pascal's Wager</a> again! We've heard this argument a million times before, and refuted it just as many times.

My personal answer to Pascal's Wager (not a refutation; just my choice) is that I opt to retain my intellectual integrity and live a good, worthwhile, finite life. Great is my reward in this life, the only life there is, if I keep my integrity and rationality.

What would it profit me if I were to believe pragmatically and lose my integrity? Nothing.

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonist ]</p>

DMB

You haven't thought of the possibility that if god exists he could be allah and you could end up in the muslim hell.

free12thinker

I have a couple points to make regarding your post. For starters, just because you don't believe in God does not mean you don't live a good life. It does not mean you don't live a nice life with respect for others and all that jazz.

Which brings me to my second point. If an atheist lives a great life, is good to others, and all that jazz, than why should their lack of faith (and that's all it is as you put it yourself) carry with it a punishment of eternal damnation?

And yes, you are right about there being no absolute proof for evolution, nor is there any proof for Christianity. And knowing this yourself, and reading your approach to belief, tell me if I read you right: You really only believe in God because, why not, if you do and there is not a god, then you lie in your grave, but if you do and there is a god, then there will be a reward, which is better than damnation for not believing? Is this a good reason to believe in something? Simply out of fear or playing it safe?

I would also like to add that living the Christian life, as its written, is not always "nice". It requires a lack of tolerance for people that are different. It requires a machoistic attitude from men to women, which in turn it requires a hush-hush approach from women. It also requires a devaluing of life since, well, life is only a space between birth and heavan/hell. According to Christianity, we should embrace death as it is nothing more than an invitation to be with God, who, be his title of "Our Creator", should be the most important being in our lives. Ahead of our families. Ahead of ourselves.

Jamie_L

Okay.

No. Either you believe in an eternal being (God), or you don't. Other beliefs about the nature of the universe are not necessarily contingent on your belief in God. Not believing in God doesn't imply anything other than not believing in God.

It's quite possible to have no belief at all regarding questions of "eternal" aspects of the universe. I really don't know where everything came from (though I lean towards a few theories). Just because I don't know doesn't mean I have to assume some supernatural entity was involved.

Side note: "eternal matter" is not the same as evolution. In the grand scheme of how the universe works, evolution is a tiny little piece of the puzzle that fits just as nicely with religious beliefs as with non-religious beliefs.

Jamie

free12thinker

I would like to add one other thing. When you ask "Since we are not all scientists, should we just take their word for it?". The difference between taking their word for it and believing in the idea of God seems very clear to atheists. No, we are not all scientists, but yes, we have all seen science on many levels. On the other hand, we have not seen a God. We are taught that Greek and Roman Mythology (Zeus, Appollo, etc...) are all myths. We consistently ridicule about the Boogie Man. About the Lochness Monster. We laugh at the appaling unbelievability of horror movies, and ghost stories. Because they are unbelievable. And yet, we are always asked, how can you believe in something you cannot fully explain (evolution with science) and not believe in something else you cannot fully understand (god).

The reasons are simple. The idea of spiritual beings and deity's have zero evidence and science has evidence. Evolution has evidence. It is not absolute proof, you're right about that, but it's consistent and it's current.

Here's a hypo for you: If I tell you that I saw the sun rise, and Jack (whoever) tell's you he saw an elephant selling peanuts, who do you believe? Simple question w/a simple answer.

Boone K. Lowe

First of all, I apologize for being misunderstood. I did not say, nor did I intend to imply, that just because you don't believe in God doesn't mean you don't live a good life.
Anyone has the ability to be kind to others and "all that jazz." I was simply trying to say that there is nothing wrong with living a Christian life...and that is part of how living a Christian life is to be.

To everyone else:

I apologize for bringing up Pascal's Wager. That, however, is not why I believe. I believe this way because of way too many things that have occurred in my life that don't point any other way.

free12thinker

Ditto here. Atheists don't have all the answers regarding evolution, some atheists take other routes altogether. We are simply sure that no god exists, because we have no proof.

Boone K. Lowe

Good question, however, I would just answer that I believe that they both believe what they saw, whether or not I believe what they saw.