kookiejar

I've been trying to help some Jehovah's Witnesses see the light. They gave me their laughable inaccurate book about evolution "Life how did it get here?" and I researched every paragraph for them, showed them the scientific proof of evolution, showed them the places where quotes were taken out of context and asked them why a book that supposedly contains the truth would have to resort to so many lies. They just looked at me with their little blank smiles and told me that these were merely details that didn't matter in the "Big Picture" of God's existance. I'm almost at the end of my rope with these people. Any suggestions on what to try next?

Eudaimonist

Not talking to them.

Do not wish to be associated w/ II

Throw the fucking book at them. If they are gonna let you go to all that trouble and then not listen they deserve having the book thrown at them. Make sure you wipe your arse with it first.

kookiejar

Ha, ha. Believe me I felt like throwing something. And I think by not talking to them I would just be re-enforcing in their minds the stereotype of a non-believer who doesn't want to listen, and won't consider their views with an open mind. I'm not one to follow the crowd.

NOGO

The "Big Picture" ? Right.

Try the story below. This is about as "big picture" as you can get. Please let me know how it goes.

Somewhere in Genesis man made a great sin and God promised us a saviour.
Jesus was the sacrificial lamb whose blood would allow God to forgive humanity.

Hebrews 9:22
And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

We can look back at the OT note the bold text

Lev 4
24 "He shall lay his hand on the head of the male goat and slay it in the place where they slay the burnt offering before the LORD; it is a sin offering.
25 "Then the priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering; and the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering.
26 All its fat he shall offer up in smoke on the altar as in the case of the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him in regard to his sin, and he will be forgiven.

Lev 5
5 "So it shall be when he becomes guilty in one of these, that he shall confess that in which he has sinned.
6 "He shall also bring his guilt offering to the LORD for his sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin.
7 "But if he cannot afford a lamb, then he shall bring to the LORD his guilt offering for that in which he has sinned, two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering.
8 "He shall bring them to the priest, who shall offer first that which is for the sin offering and shall nip its head at the front of its neck, but he shall not sever it.
9 "He shall also sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering on the side of the altar, while the rest of the blood shall be drained out at the base of the altar: it is a sin offering.
10 "The second he shall then prepare as a burnt offering according to the ordinance. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin which he has committed, and it will be forgiven him.

There are many more examples.
Basically to have their sin's forgiven the Hebrews shed animal blood to Yahweh ... and He forgave them.

Jesus was suppose to be a sacrificial lamb for forginess of sins.
But hopefully not ordinary sins since they had ordinary lambs and other animals for that. This is the way Hebrews 9 puts it.

Hebrew 9:13-14
For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

So Jesus' blood was much more effective than animal blood but surely Jesus did not die for ordinary sins alone. Romans 5 explains Jesus' main mission.

Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.


Romans 5:10
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

A read of Romans 5 shows that Jesus' main mission was, in a nutshell, to undo Adam's sin and reconcile humanity to God.

This is then God's plan for humanity. After man sinned God promised a saviour who would fix man`s error and give him that which he has lost, eternal life.

This is the essence of Christianity and I do believe that the JWs subscribe to it.

Here are my thoughts on the above which I shall call "God`s plan".

I have read all of the Old Testament.

In Genesis I don't really see that God promised a saviour but I will continue assuming that it is there and it is just me who cannot see it.

Where in the rest of the OT do any of God`s prophets speak of "God`s plan" ?
I have not found a single word on the subject. So please if the JWs know of a place in the OT that speaks of the need to undo what Adam did in order to reconciled humanity with God and have eternal life, let me know.

Here is a good place where I would have expected a word or two.
NASB Ecclesiastes 9
2 It is the same for all. There is one fate for the righteous and for the wicked; for the good, for the clean and for the unclean; for the man who offers a sacrifice and for the one who does not sacrifice. As the good man is, so is the sinner; as the swearer is, so is the one who is afraid to swear.
3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.
4 For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
6 Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.
7 Go then, eat your bread in happiness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart; for God has already approved your works.
8 Let your clothes be white all the time, and let not oil be lacking on your head.
9 Enjoy life with the woman whom you love all the days of your fleeting life which He has given to you under the sun; for this is your reward in life and in your toil in which you have labored under the sun.
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.

The author of Ecc 9 is saying that there is one fate for all men, good or bad. All are going to Sheol. What is Sheol? Verse 4,5 and 10 give you some information. There is hope for the living but not for the dead (verse 4). The living know that they will die but the dead know nothing (verse 5). There is no activity, planning, knowledge or wisdom in Sheol (verse 10).

So this would have been the perfect place for this author to tell us that God actually promised humanity a way out. Redemption and eternal life through a saviour. But this author like all of the OT says nothing about "God's plan".


Where did Jesus state his mission as being related to "God's plan".
That is where does Jesus say that he is there to undo what Adam did and reconcile humanity to God. Please let the JWs tell us, I simply have not found any.

Jesus does state what his mission is about in Matthew 15

Matthew 15
22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed."
23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"
26 And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."

"I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel"
You can't have clearer than that. Now people usually say but he granted the woman what she wanted. Yes he did but it does not matter much. Jesus says very plainly that he is not there for all of humanity but only for the people of Israel. How could this be the one to save the world from the fall of mankind. Jesus seems to be unaware of "God's plan".

So what Romans 5 says is contradicted by Matthew 15.


Next...
This is Luke 1, John the baptist's father is speaking.

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

Where is the fall of humanity?
Verses 74 and 75 stated the purpose of salvation.
Note "all the days of our life" but where is eternal life given by Jesus' sacrifice as opposed to death brought by Adam's sin (according to Romans 5). Where is God's promise to redeem humanity?

If mankind fell
If God promised a saviour to redeem humanity

THEN

a) This theme would have been present throughout the old testament
b) the prophets would have spoken about this very import revelation from God
c) Jesus would have stated THIS as his mission


INSTEAD

We have a vague reference in Genesis and we have Romans 5 and a BIG BIG HOLE in between.

Please explain.

Pangea

*sigh* I have two JW at my work and ever since they found out I am an atheist, they have been laying it on pretty thick. Just yesterday one gave me this Watchtower book called "Who Is God?". He said to me, as he laid this little treasure on my desk, "I was reading this yesterday and thought of you *gee thanks*. You might find it enlightening."

That just kills me everytime. And see, I have all this anti religion stuff up around my cube (I would not normally advertise so blatantly but if everybody else can have their Praise Jesus plaques and other propaganda, then I can have my propaganda too) and I know they see it but its like they refuse to accept that I am happy the way I am and do not need enlightening.

I already had a 'discussion' with one about blood transfusions. After that, I knew it was heading downhill fast.

Dark Jedi

Heh. Did this with family, works pretty damn well if you can stomach it.

Go get some beef blood. Keep it cold. When they come by doing their thing, pour yourself a brandy snifter of it and sip it while you chat. Offer them some.

Disgusting to most, but even knowing it is beef, they have a particular revulsion to it. The stronger their evangelism/belief, the stronger their reaction.
It really does not taste bad at all. Kind of like slightly salty water, with a hint of metallic aftertaste.

But then, I have done some really revolting and mean things just for the impact.

Eudaimonist

You won't be reinforcing anything. They already have a thoroughly-inforced view of atheists. Their minds work like a broken record, with the mental needle stuck forever in the same groove. You can't make their impression of us any worse, nor can you make it any better. Nothing you do will make a difference to them.

Focus your efforts on luke-warm Christians. They might be in the market for new ideas.

kookiejar

NOGO, you have a very interesting point, I'll read through that again a couple more times to get the facts and verses straight and then I will ask them. Thanks.
Dark Jedi-You are very dark indeed. Think I'll microwave my blood a little first.
Eudaimonist-I can't get any luke warm Christians to knock on my door. Besides I know JWs can be converted because I've posted on their message board and MAN are they fun after they have come out of their brainwashed stupor.

Eudaimonist

Wow! How did you manage that?