Tom Sawyer

This post is directed to the Christians out there. One thing that has always confused me about Christianity is what's the big deal about Jesus dying on the cross?

According to the Bible, Jesus knew that he was God. He knew that he was immortal and would be back shortly, just as good as ever. Why then is his dying anything special? It apparently didn't put him out much.

If the thing was he did it to forgive the sins of the world, or something like that, why didn't he just do that without all the theatrics of dying and coming back to life? If the whole "blessed is he who does not see, but believes" thing is valid, why did he bother with a miracle to forgive all the sins instead of just forgiving them?

So basically, why did he have to get crucified to do what he did and if he didn't have to, why did an omnipotent God let the Romans nail him up on a cross without doing anything about it?

JerryM

While I am not a Christian, I have studied some Christian theology. The reason for Christ's death goes back to Old Testament law. The OT states that the punishment for sin is death. The books of Exodus and Leviticus have extensive and detailed protocols for how various animals must be slaughtered as expiation for sin. Blood must be spilled to remove guilt. Of course, it is a savage and primitive concept, but it's there. Jesus is seen as the ultimate sacrificial lamb who paid for the sins of all mankind. His death was necessary, because that is the only way to fulfill the OT law. It amuses me to hear some Christians condemn various animist and "pagan" religions for past practices of human sacrifice, when the most central metaphor of their own faith is a story of human sacrifice.

Tom Sawyer

OK, even if his death was necessary, it still doesn't answer the question of what the big deal about it was - he knew he was immortal, so crucifixion was a doddle.

Also, as the Supreme Being, the concept of sacrificing being necessary to forgive sins was based on that the sacrifice was a way to ask God to forgive the sins. Since he is God, why does he have to go through all the bother of the sacrifice to ask himself to do something? Why doesn't he just do it without all the flim flam?

Atticus_Finch

Okay, I propose that you allow me to scrourge you until the skin comes off your back, beat you and then drive a crown of thorns into your head. After that, I will take large spikes and drive them through your hands or wrists and ankles and hang you from a cross. If I promise that you will not die as a result of my actions (rough equivalent to Christ knowing he is immortal) will you agree to do it? Would you really consider it no big doddle?

Regards,

Finch

Vesica

The way I have heard the big deal explained:

He was immortal not immune....So it hurt, a lot. The empahsis was on a willing sacrifice out of love when he could have freed himself at any point in the process...

I have no idea about your second part..I could parrot theology but that part has never made much sense to me...

Walter_Mitty

Atticus:

1) He died relatively fast compared to most crucifictions.

2) There are certainly much worse ways to suffer and die. (POW's, etc.)

3) How does God dividing itself in three and killing part of itself, atone for anyone's sin? Especially considering God created everything including sin! Is this the best method the master of the Universe could think of?

4) Taking into account that He is alleged to be omniscient, he knew he'd have a quick death, go to hell for only 3 days, and then be in heaven for eternity. Furthermore, being God, HE could raise one third of himself from the dead a million times (omnipotent). Where's the sacrfice in that? Compare that to a Jew who dies in a concentration camp after months of suffering, with no foreknowledge that paradise awaits. Take it further by saying Christianity is right. In that case, that poor Jew leaves one mess and wakes up in Hell for all eternity, irregradless of if that poor Jew lead a good life. (the Jewish faith does not believe trinitarian dogma)

Who would you rather be? Christ on the cross or that poor Jew?

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Bibliophile ]</p>

Tom Sawyer

OK, even if it did hurt and he went through a lot of pain in order to forgive us for our sins, why was that necessary?

If I see a man dying of thirst by the side of the road, I could willingly bash my head on the concrete a number of times as I crawl over on my hands and knees to bring him a glass of water, or I could simply walk over normally and give him a drink. Would it more special in some way if I did the former instead of the latter, or would I simply be wasting my time?

So why it's a big deal that he went through this to save the world from sin when, as an omnipotent deity who is the one who defines what sin is and who suffers from it, he could have just forgiven everybody without going through all that trouble and pain? And if he didn't have to go through the pain in order to do it, why is that fact that he went through the pain valuable? Wasn't it just a waste of time?

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: peteyh ]</p>

Vesica

Point taken.

Just a hint though...You might get more people (Particularly Christians whom you are seeking) posting in here if your replies were a little less abrasive...

The bashing your head on the ground bit is a little melodramatic....Essentially you have reframed you query into a broad philosphical question that could just as easily be posed as 'If I give you the last can of Coke in the world..Is the action and its meaning different if I wanted the Coke for myself vs. me prefering Pepsi?'

Answer being: I still don't know...I answered your 'Why is the crucifixion touted as such a big deal?' to the best of my abilities....Sorry I can't address 'Why this needed to happen in the first place?'

Technos

At this point someone will likely change the subject, because christians have no non-circular answers to this question that I have ever witnessed.

Well, the latter would have more Drama, and more people would feel sorry for the poor guy so they would be mo9re emotional and less logical.

Only if a perfect deity did exist, only if a god existed in the first place. Christians are taught this kind of thing before they know how to read, indoctrinated into christianity with no knowledge of the world outside of it, ignorant to all other religions, uninformed or misinformed about culture and sociology, etc. It's not like these things are explained to them or questioned with any valid interest in addressing the 'mystery' at hand.

Peace

Tom Sawyer

Vesica,

I apologize if my answer sounded abrasive, it was not intentional. I was, however, trying to be dramatic to describe going through a great deal of pain in order to do something I could have accomplished without any pain whatsoever and gotten the exact same result.