Anti-Creedance Front

I was sure that Genesis almost paralleled the Enuma Elish, and that Abraham came from Ur. This just solidifies what I thought. I checked out a book from the library a few days ago, due to a map I found paging through it. Oddly enough, it's a book of angel clip-art, but for some reason they have this map in there. It's "Topographia Paradisi Terrestris" made by Samuel Bochart in the early 1600's. I know the name sounds intriguing. It is! If you have any knowledge of Latin or Latin parts of speech, this phrase means "a map of paradise on earth". What he did is pinpoint where he thinks Eden would be based on Genesis. He put it right smack dab in between the Euphrates and Tigris rivers, near the Persian Gulf. That's Mesopotamia. Edin in ancient Sumerian means simply "plain"! Abraham came from Ur, which is only a couple miles north of it. It is so bleeding obvious that when Abraham started up his following, he put the Sumerian creation story into it. It makes perfect sense. Finding out things like this make me want to drop my art major and go into archaeology. Like some say, science kills religion dead. Between me and other people researching such things, we are going to rip their "secure theology" to pieces. In due time, that is.

<a href="http://www.emanuelnyc.org/mapexhibit/file31.jpg" target="_blank">Topographia Paradisi Terrestris</a>

[ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: Anti-Creedance Front ]</p>

Atticus_Finch

Funny, my theology still feels secure. It is preposterous, from a biblical point of view, to pinpoint the location of the Garden. I know some Christians try to do so. The Garden would have been destroyed in the Flood. I do not think that biblical scholars believe that the rivers mentioned in Genesis correspond to those with the same names which exist today. Likewise, just because there is now a mountain in Turkey called Ararat, I don't believe that it is the same mountain mentioned in Genesis. The Garden could have been anywhere.

As far as your theory that Judiasm incorporated Sumerian beliefs, I ask two questions. First, isn't it also possible that the Sumerians and Jews were both reflecting events which actually occured? If there was a worldwide, or even regional flood, the descendents of the survivors would likely know the story, although it may have changed slightly in the telling. Second, upon what objective basis do you determine that the Sumerian account came first?

Regards,

Finch

Anti-Creedance Front

You can stay in denial, and keep that veil over your eyes. If someone mentioned Europe in an ancient historical book, does that mean they're talking about the continent? That's some twisted logic, buddy. It must also be a coincidence too, then, that Abraham came from Ur, and that Judah was predated by Mesopotamian civilization like Canaan. It doesn't matter what the exact site of "Eden" is, all evidence points to Sumer. I'm sure it's some kind of coincidence too that the Canaanite chief god El shares his name with the Jewish god Elohim. If you're going to debate with me, at least make a plausable argument.

Atticus_Finch

Please explain your "Europe" reference to me. I have no idea what your point is. If it doesn't matter what the exact site of Eden is, then why do you make a point that all evidence points to Sumer? What is your point? If your point is that there are similarities between other ancient religions and Judiasm, I agree. They do have some things in common. I do not think that is is a coincidence but rather the remnants of a shared common history. For example, if all the people of the earth are descended from the sons of Noah, then you would expect there to similarities in their oral histories and religions. The differences would most likely grow the farther apart and geographically isolated the groups became. Therefore, we should expect many similarities between the Sumerians and the people who became the Israelites.

Regards,

Finch

butswana

According to the Mormons it's in St. Louis.

Anti-Creedance Front

But any intelligent person can see, Atticus, that YHVH "evolved" from an angry, jealous pagan god into HIS (God has a gender?) all-knowing, omnipotent, all-seeing, compassionate universal deity he supposedly is today. What else but a pagan god would have a "chosen people"? It's right there in plain text. The god of Israel. As many like to point out, Israel itself means "Rule of El" in Hebrew. My reference to Europe was to make the point that you are skirting the issue. As far as those things about exact locations, I meant that we don't need an exact location IN SUMER, because there is enough evidence to support, at least, that it was IN Sumer. I will continue to scoff at you if you tell me snakes can speak also.

[ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: Anti-Creedance Front ]</p>

Berenger Sauniere

In its day the Enuma Elish creation story was the most popular thing going with the Middle Eastern world. It is also saturated with countless gods. Even if Abe took an axe to all these gods and created a creation story from what few crumbs were left, he would have been the laughing stock of the Middle East. After the laughing was over, they would have killed him.

[ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: Berenger Sauniere ]</p>

Amos

It sounds like you had your first day in school and are now motivated to become somebody.

Let me suggest that you are not somebody until you realize that paradise is between your eyes and that science will never be a match for omniscience.

Marduk

There was an interesting show on Discover about 'The Real Eden' they followed the Biblical/Sumerian trail and ended up in an area of Northern Iran surrounded by four mountains and four rivers. But they did not use the Enuma Elish, it is "Enmakar and the Gods of Errata" they followed. Another Sumerian poem. The Enuma Elish is mostly about a war among the gods, creation of humans as servants to the gods, and lots of trash talkin' 'bout how cool Marduk is.

Starboy

Christians want it both ways. Bible real historical account. Reconcile early biblical characters with history, can't be done.

Make up your mind, or is this YACCD.

Starboy