Freethought & Rationalism Archive

cheetah · 01-08-2002, 07:59 AM

Hey everyone! I am in a discussion currently with an ardent theist who is telling me all about how Chrsitians have the corner on the "good People" market. I want to cite the oft-heard statistic about the fact that 14 or so % of the US are free-thinkers/ atheist/ agnostic, but only 1% of the prison population is.

Can anyone tell me where the source of this info is? Also, I anticipate that he will say this is because Christians convert so many people in jail, not because they enter jail being Christian. Anyone herad or seen refutations to that?

Thanks! I appreciate any assistance.

Jobar · 01-08-2002, 08:20 AM

Here you go. Sorry about the formatting.

-Studies: Atheists Supply
less than One Percent
of Prison Populations
by Dale Clark,

It's surprising how many people remark to me, "You're an Atheist? You must
have no
conscience about committing crime
then." Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, if we examine the
population
of our prisons, we see a very different
picture.
In "The New Criminology," Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith say that two
generations
of statisticians found that the ratio
of convicts without religious training is about one-tenth of one percent.
W.T. Root,
Professor of Psychology at the University of
Pittsburgh, examined 1,916 prisoners and said, "Indifference to religion,
due to
thought, strengthens character," adding that
Unitarians, Agnostics, Atheists and Free-Thinkers were absent from
penitentiaries, or
nearly so.

During 10 years in Sing-Sing, of those executed for murder 65 percent were
Catholics,
26 percent Protestants, six percent
Hebrew, two percent Pagan, and less than one-third of one percent
non-religious.

Steiner and Swancara surveyed Canadian prisons and found 1,294 Catholics,
435
Anglicans, 241 Methodists, 135 Baptists,
and one Unitarian.

Dr. Christian, Superintendent of the N.Y. State Reformatories, checked
records of
22,000 prison inmates and found only four
college graduates. In "Who's Who," 91 percent were college graduates;
Christian
commented that "intelligence and knowledge
produce right living," and, "crime is the offspring of superstition and
ignorance."

A survey of Massachusetts reformatories found every inmate to be religious.

In Joliet Prison, there were 2,888 Catholics, 1,020 Baptists, 617 Methodists
and no
prisoners identified as non-religious.

Michigan had 82,000 Baptists and 83,000 Jews in the state population; but in
the
prisons, there were 22 times as many
Baptists as Jews, and 18 times as many Methodists as Jews. In Sing-Sing,
there were
1,553 inmates, 855 of them (over half)
Catholics, 518 Protestants, 117 Jews, and 8 non-religious.

Steiner first surveyed 27 states and found 19,400 Christians, 5,000 with no
preference and only 3 Agnostics (one each in
Connecticut, New Hampshire, and Illinois). A later, more exhaustive survey
found
60,605 Christians, 5,000 Jews, 131 Pagans,
4,000 "no preference," and only 3 Agnostics.

In one 19-state survey, Steiner found 15 non-believers, Spiritualists,
Theosophists,
Deists, Pantheists and one Agnostic among
nearly 83,000 inmates. He labeled all 15 as "anti-Christians." The Elmira,
N.Y.
reformatory system overshadowed all others,
with nearly 31,000 inmates, including 15,694 Catholics (half) and 10,968
Protestants,
4,000 Jews, 325 refusing to answer, and
no unbelievers.

In the East, over 64 percent of inmates are Roman Catholic. Throughout the
national
prison population, they average 50
percent. A national census of the general population found Catholics to be
about 15
percent (and they count from the diaper
up). Hardly 12 percent are old enough to commit a crime, and half of these
are women.
That leaves an adult Catholic
population of 6 percent supplying 50 percent of the prison population.

Rhea · 01-08-2002, 09:31 AM

Great info - how old is that essay/research?

brighid · 01-08-2002, 09:54 AM

I had copied this study and this is the additional info I had saved:
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:48:22 -0800
From: yang hu <yangh@****uci***.edu>
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion

Don't know if that helps.

Brighid

brighid · 01-08-2002, 10:12 AM

<a href="http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Morality/CrimeAndDivorce.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Morality/CrimeAndDivorce.shtml</a>

<a href="http://www.rubak.com/article.cfm?ID=11" target="_blank">http://www.rubak.com/article.cfm?ID=11</a>

<a href="http://freethought.freeservers.com/reason/crimestats.html" target="_blank">http://freethought.freeservers.com/reason/crimestats.html</a>

<a href="http://www.800123.com/atheism/html/prisons.html" target="_blank">http://www.800123.com/atheism/html/prisons.html</a>

Ah and the infidel forum is mentioned at a rabid anti-atheist site here: <a href="http://www.tencommandments.org/heathens1.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.tencommandments.org/heathens1.shtml</a>

This is for comparison! Haven't read through the last one - could hardly stomach it - but if anyone would like to tackle its crap - Oey Vey!

Brighid

cheetah · 01-11-2002, 08:39 AM

Thanks a lot! You guys are great! I am always impressed with the people on this site, because it seems like whenever someone asks about information and stuff, the others on the board are so quick to provide links and info about it!! Cool!

I am also bumping this to see if anyone has heard about the issue I mentioned. This is, is the prison population of atheists lower, because at the time of the surveys, a good portion of the atheists had been converted to theism, meaning that the stat is really not as meaningful and theists are just very successful at converting prisoners...not that they commit crime more.

Coragyps · 01-11-2002, 10:53 AM

I have no data to offer, but "prison ministries" are fairly big business, and I can certainly see myself "converting" if I were in for twenty years, imagining the probable religious make-up of a parole board here in the great state of Texas. Can you hear them, paging down the list? "Baptist, Baptist, Church of Christ, Methodist, atheist!! - put him back! - Baptist, ...

Vorkosigan · 01-11-2002, 05:02 PM

That info above is years out of date, as I recall. Some good stuff was posted on another thread about this that is up to date. I have it somewhere....

Michael

Vorkosigan · 01-11-2002, 05:37 PM

<a href="http://www.penlex.org.uk/pages/avebury4.html" target="_blank">http://www.penlex.org.uk/pages/avebury4.html</a>

this one is on britain. I can't find the US fed prisoner population, although it is similar. Note that britain has a similar drought of atheists in the prisons, but there are a lot more atheists in Britain than here.

Michael

Vorkosigan · 01-11-2002, 05:50 PM

I found this in a file I have...

_________________________________

The results of the Christians vs atheists
in prison investigation.

By Rod Swift
I have expanded the figures to provide a % of the total respondents, and I have ranked them (they were presented to me alphabetically). These stats were obtained from their computer on 5 March 1997.

Dear Mr. Swift:

The Federal Bureau of Prisons does have statistics on religious
affiliations of inmates. The following are total number of
inmates per religion category:

Response Number %
---------------------------- --------
Catholic 29267 39.164%
Protestant 26162 35.008%
Muslim 5435 7.273%
American Indian 2408 3.222%
Nation 1734 2.320%
Rasta 1485 1.987%
Jewish 1325 1.773%
Church of Christ 1303 1.744%
Pentecostal 1093 1.463%
Moorish 1066 1.426%
Buddhist 882 1.180%
Jehovah Witness 665 0.890%
Adventist 621 0.831%
Orthodox 375 0.502%
Mormon 298 0.399%
Scientology 190 0.254%
Atheist 156 0.209%
Hindu 119 0.159%
Santeria 117 0.157%
Sikh 14 0.019%
Bahai 9 0.012%
Krishna 7 0.009%
---------------------------- --------
Total Known Responses 74731 100.001% (rounding to 3 digits does this)

Unknown/No Answer 18381
----------------------------
Total Convicted 93112 80.259% (74731) prisoners' religion is known.

Held in Custody 3856 (not surveyed due to temporary custody)
----------------------------
Total In Prisons 96968

I hope that this information is helpful to you.

Sincerely,

Denise Golumbaski
Research Analyst
Federal Bureau of Prisons

Now, let's just deal with the nasty Christian types, no?

Catholic 29267 39.164%
Protestant 26162 35.008%
Rasta 1485 1.987%
Jewish 1325 1.773%
Church of Christ 1303 1.744%
Pentecostal 1093 1.463%
Jehovah Witness 665 0.890%
Adventist 621 0.831%
Orthodox 375 0.502%
Mormon 298 0.399%

Judeo-Christian Total 62594 83.761% (of the 74731 total responses)
Total Known Responses 74731

Not unexpected as a result. Note that atheists, being a moderate proportion of the USA population (about 8-16%) are disproportionately less in the prison populations (0.21%).

01-08-2002, 07:59 AM	#1
cheetah Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,118	Theistic Prison Population Hey everyone! I am in a discussion currently with an ardent theist who is telling me all about how Chrsitians have the corner on the "good People" market. I want to cite the oft-heard statistic about the fact that 14 or so % of the US are free-thinkers/ atheist/ agnostic, but only 1% of the prison population is. Can anyone tell me where the source of this info is? Also, I anticipate that he will say this is because Christians convert so many people in jail, not because they enter jail being Christian. Anyone herad or seen refutations to that? Thanks! I appreciate any assistance.

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01-08-2002, 08:20 AM	#2
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Here you go. Sorry about the formatting. -Studies: Atheists Supply less than One Percent of Prison Populations by Dale Clark, It's surprising how many people remark to me, "You're an Atheist? You must have no conscience about committing crime then." Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, if we examine the population of our prisons, we see a very different picture. In "The New Criminology," Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith say that two generations of statisticians found that the ratio of convicts without religious training is about one-tenth of one percent. W.T. Root, Professor of Psychology at the University of Pittsburgh, examined 1,916 prisoners and said, "Indifference to religion, due to thought, strengthens character," adding that Unitarians, Agnostics, Atheists and Free-Thinkers were absent from penitentiaries, or nearly so. During 10 years in Sing-Sing, of those executed for murder 65 percent were Catholics, 26 percent Protestants, six percent Hebrew, two percent Pagan, and less than one-third of one percent non-religious. Steiner and Swancara surveyed Canadian prisons and found 1,294 Catholics, 435 Anglicans, 241 Methodists, 135 Baptists, and one Unitarian. Dr. Christian, Superintendent of the N.Y. State Reformatories, checked records of 22,000 prison inmates and found only four college graduates. In "Who's Who," 91 percent were college graduates; Christian commented that "intelligence and knowledge produce right living," and, "crime is the offspring of superstition and ignorance." A survey of Massachusetts reformatories found every inmate to be religious. In Joliet Prison, there were 2,888 Catholics, 1,020 Baptists, 617 Methodists and no prisoners identified as non-religious. Michigan had 82,000 Baptists and 83,000 Jews in the state population; but in the prisons, there were 22 times as many Baptists as Jews, and 18 times as many Methodists as Jews. In Sing-Sing, there were 1,553 inmates, 855 of them (over half) Catholics, 518 Protestants, 117 Jews, and 8 non-religious. Steiner first surveyed 27 states and found 19,400 Christians, 5,000 with no preference and only 3 Agnostics (one each in Connecticut, New Hampshire, and Illinois). A later, more exhaustive survey found 60,605 Christians, 5,000 Jews, 131 Pagans, 4,000 "no preference," and only 3 Agnostics. In one 19-state survey, Steiner found 15 non-believers, Spiritualists, Theosophists, Deists, Pantheists and one Agnostic among nearly 83,000 inmates. He labeled all 15 as "anti-Christians." The Elmira, N.Y. reformatory system overshadowed all others, with nearly 31,000 inmates, including 15,694 Catholics (half) and 10,968 Protestants, 4,000 Jews, 325 refusing to answer, and no unbelievers. In the East, over 64 percent of inmates are Roman Catholic. Throughout the national prison population, they average 50 percent. A national census of the general population found Catholics to be about 15 percent (and they count from the diaper up). Hardly 12 percent are old enough to commit a crime, and half of these are women. That leaves an adult Catholic population of 6 percent supplying 50 percent of the prison population.

01-08-2002, 09:31 AM	#3
Rhea Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Recluse Posts: 9,040	Great info - how old is that essay/research?

01-08-2002, 09:54 AM	#4
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	I had copied this study and this is the additional info I had saved: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:48:22 -0800 From: yang hu <yangh@**uci*.edu> Organization: University of California, Irvine Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion Don't know if that helps. Brighid

01-08-2002, 10:12 AM	#5
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	<a href="http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Morality/CrimeAndDivorce.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Morality/CrimeAndDivorce.shtml</a> <a href="http://www.rubak.com/article.cfm?ID=11" target="_blank">http://www.rubak.com/article.cfm?ID=11</a> <a href="http://freethought.freeservers.com/reason/crimestats.html" target="_blank">http://freethought.freeservers.com/reason/crimestats.html</a> <a href="http://www.800123.com/atheism/html/prisons.html" target="_blank">http://www.800123.com/atheism/html/prisons.html</a> Ah and the infidel forum is mentioned at a rabid anti-atheist site here: <a href="http://www.tencommandments.org/heathens1.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.tencommandments.org/heathens1.shtml</a> This is for comparison! Haven't read through the last one - could hardly stomach it - but if anyone would like to tackle its crap - Oey Vey! Brighid

01-11-2002, 08:39 AM	#6
cheetah Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,118	Thanks a lot! You guys are great! I am always impressed with the people on this site, because it seems like whenever someone asks about information and stuff, the others on the board are so quick to provide links and info about it!! Cool! I am also bumping this to see if anyone has heard about the issue I mentioned. This is, is the prison population of atheists lower, because at the time of the surveys, a good portion of the atheists had been converted to theism, meaning that the stat is really not as meaningful and theists are just very successful at converting prisoners...not that they commit crime more.

01-11-2002, 10:53 AM	#7
Coragyps Veteran Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Snyder,Texas,USA Posts: 4,411	I have no data to offer, but "prison ministries" are fairly big business, and I can certainly see myself "converting" if I were in for twenty years, imagining the probable religious make-up of a parole board here in the great state of Texas. Can you hear them, paging down the list? "Baptist, Baptist, Church of Christ, Methodist, atheist!! - put him back! - Baptist, ...

01-11-2002, 05:02 PM	#8
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	That info above is years out of date, as I recall. Some good stuff was posted on another thread about this that is up to date. I have it somewhere.... Michael

01-11-2002, 05:37 PM	#9
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	<a href="http://www.penlex.org.uk/pages/avebury4.html" target="_blank">http://www.penlex.org.uk/pages/avebury4.html</a> this one is on britain. I can't find the US fed prisoner population, although it is similar. Note that britain has a similar drought of atheists in the prisons, but there are a lot more atheists in Britain than here. Michael

01-11-2002, 05:50 PM	#10
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	I found this in a file I have... _________________________________ The results of the Christians vs atheists in prison investigation. By Rod Swift I have expanded the figures to provide a % of the total respondents, and I have ranked them (they were presented to me alphabetically). These stats were obtained from their computer on 5 March 1997. Dear Mr. Swift: The Federal Bureau of Prisons does have statistics on religious affiliations of inmates. The following are total number of inmates per religion category: Response Number % ---------------------------- -------- Catholic 29267 39.164% Protestant 26162 35.008% Muslim 5435 7.273% American Indian 2408 3.222% Nation 1734 2.320% Rasta 1485 1.987% Jewish 1325 1.773% Church of Christ 1303 1.744% Pentecostal 1093 1.463% Moorish 1066 1.426% Buddhist 882 1.180% Jehovah Witness 665 0.890% Adventist 621 0.831% Orthodox 375 0.502% Mormon 298 0.399% Scientology 190 0.254% Atheist 156 0.209% Hindu 119 0.159% Santeria 117 0.157% Sikh 14 0.019% Bahai 9 0.012% Krishna 7 0.009% ---------------------------- -------- Total Known Responses 74731 100.001% (rounding to 3 digits does this) Unknown/No Answer 18381 ---------------------------- Total Convicted 93112 80.259% (74731) prisoners' religion is known. Held in Custody 3856 (not surveyed due to temporary custody) ---------------------------- Total In Prisons 96968 I hope that this information is helpful to you. Sincerely, Denise Golumbaski Research Analyst Federal Bureau of Prisons Now, let's just deal with the nasty Christian types, no? Catholic 29267 39.164% Protestant 26162 35.008% Rasta 1485 1.987% Jewish 1325 1.773% Church of Christ 1303 1.744% Pentecostal 1093 1.463% Jehovah Witness 665 0.890% Adventist 621 0.831% Orthodox 375 0.502% Mormon 298 0.399% Judeo-Christian Total 62594 83.761% (of the 74731 total responses) Total Known Responses 74731 Not unexpected as a result. Note that atheists, being a moderate proportion of the USA population (about 8-16%) are disproportionately less in the prison populations (0.21%).

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