Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Tyler Durden · 03-25-2003, 03:35 PM

I am corresponding to this person who has a strong belief in the evils of Islam, and the following is an excerpt from one of our emails. I wanted to share this with you and listen to your feedback, if any.

The discussion sprang from how we could accurately gauge the might of the 101st airborne division...

Quote:

Rome held sway over the world for a couple of centuries. They held a huge swath over almost every single contient. Their downfall was due to the Muslim's army that rose and devasted Rome (at its decline) and took over more land than Rome ever did at its height of its power.

Of course, it was the Crusade that tried and failed in many respect to win back the country that they once held.

Yep, amazing . .isn't it? . . Almost everyone was a Christian in
Africa, Europe, Arabia, and wherever Rome held its power. Chrisitan is older than Islam. So the sense of "crusade" in which infuritates many muslims are wholly unfounded, for it was the muslims that took the country away from the christians, so it was simply a case of retaking what was originally theirs. Of course, you don't hear those arguments like that out there, the word "crusade" is a taboo , whereas jihad is justified. . . . . ah well. . . ignorantum de historia!

I am mightily suspicious of his own knowledge of history, given it is thoroughly pro-american/current unelected president/nationalist... After all, i thought it was due to the splintering of the Church (Roman and Orthodox) and the invasions of the barbarians from the north. Didn't Islam emerge at least 500 to 600 years after Rome fell? Is there a historian in the house?

philechat · 03-25-2003, 03:39 PM

What the f*ck? The Roman empire fell apart at 5th century, and Islam didn't come in at least 200 years later. It was caused by a series of complicated factors including, but not limited to, barbarian invasion, Rome's loss of soldiers (early Christians refused to bear arms), the corruption that necessarily happen after a long period of monarchy, and the disregard of cultural perservation among the early Christians. And I think there was also a bubonic plague going on at that time.

happyboy · 03-25-2003, 03:39 PM

yes, rome fell to the barbarian hordes LONG before mohammed started hallucinating about angels and intolerant monotheist deities.

your friend is a moron, and needs to be smacked very hard.

happyboy, who's wondering what exactly the world is coming to

Tyler Durden · 03-25-2003, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by philechat
What the f*ck? The Roman empire was split apart at 5th century, and Islam didn't come in at least 200 years later. It was caused by a series of complicated factors including, but not limited to, barbarian invasion, Rome's loss of soldiers (early Christians refused to bear arms), the corruption that necessarily happen after a long period of monarchy, and the disregard of cultural perservation among the early Christians. And I think there was also bubonic plague going on at that time.

I apologize for wasting your time. I just did a google search and found this site. Please do not kill the messenger! At least my bullshit meter is working.

Autonemesis · 03-25-2003, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Durden
Didn't Islam emerge at least 500 to 600 years after Rome fell? Is there a historian in the house?

A Google search turned up April 20, 571 as the date Muslim scholars place Mohammed's birth. It seems unlikely that Rome fell to a movement whose founder was born a century and a half later.

Toto · 03-25-2003, 03:52 PM

A google search finds this Timeline

Seaching for Roman Empire and following on, we find these key dates:

Visigoths defeat Roman army 378

Theodosius is emperor 379

Roman presence in Britain reduced c. 380

Emperor rebuked by bishop 390

Christian mosaics 390

Olympic games banned 393
[Note: they were banned as pagan by the Christian theocrats of the crumbling Roman Empire]

Vandals move through Gaul into Spain 406

Roman city of N�mes is sacked 407

Visigoths plunder Rome 410

Visigoths settle in France 418

Vandals capture Carthage 439

Huns press south across Danube 445

Angles and Saxons enter England c. 450

Attila and Huns invade Gaul 451

Huns ravage northern Italy 452

Vandals sack Rome 455

Odoacer ends western empire? 476

Theodoric captures Ravenna 493

That's about the end of the Roman Empire, and Mohammed is nowhere on the scene.

Of course, your friend might be talking about the Holy Roman Empire, which was not Holy or Roman or an Empire

Click on Mohammed and Mecca

Muhammad preaches message of Allah 613

Muslims capture Jerusalem 638

Crusades against Islam start later:

Pope preaches first crusade 1095

Jews massacred in German cities 1096

Crusaders capture Jerusalem 1099

Sultans of Rum 1099

Latin kingdom of Jerusalem 1109

Knights of St John established in Jerusalem 1113

Knights Templar 1120

Crusaders lose Edessa 1144

Second crusade 1147

Saladin captures Acre 1187

Saladin takes Jerusalem 1187

Tyler Durden · 03-25-2003, 04:08 PM

Much thanks, everyone! I thought you guys deserved to read my response as well.

Quote:

Did you think before you sent me this, or were you just sleeping when you wrote this? Did you take prescription drugs while drinking something you shouldn't have?

Well. . . consider this. . . Rome held sway over the world for a couple of centuries.

No. Rome lasted 1000 years - from the founding of hte republic in 509 BC till 476 AD. not 200 years.

They held a huge swath over almost every single contient.

Incorrect. They did not stretch to north america, south america, australia, or antarctica. so they occupied at least only 3 of the 7 continents in the world. Hardly "almost every single contient"

Their downfall was due to the Muslim's army that rose and devasted Rome (at its decline) and took over more land than Rome ever did at its height of its power.

This is utter bullshit. Have you ever taken any non-american history classes? Rome was split apart at the 5th century, at least 200 years before Mohammed started hallucinating about intolerant dieties and angels. Nowhere is Islam mentioned as a cause for the fall of Rome in Gibbon's masterpiece (decadence in the upper classes, unrest of the common folk), nor in Nardo (climate destroyed agriculture) nor in Dorrington (class wars, no new territories 200 years after Christ halted the influx of new slaves and loot), Gill cites economic reasons (rome imported more than it exported, precisely the reverse of the US today, i think). Other reasons were sociopolitical, christians refused to bear arms, barbarians invasions - the germans and the Huns beat their asses. A lack of cultural preservation among the christians, as well, hell, the technology of concrete was lost for a THOUSAND years, no thanks to them.

Of course, it was the Crusade that tried and failed in many respect to win back the country that they once held.

Wrong. Muslim scholars place Mohammed's birth at April 20th, 571 AD, at least 150 years after rome fell.

Yep, amazing . .isn't it? . . Almost everyone was a Christian in Africa, Europe, Arabia, and wherever Rome held its power. Chrisitan is older than Islam.

A hell lot older.

So the sense of "crusade" in which infuritates many muslims are wholly unfounded, for it was the muslims that took the country away from the christians, so it was simply a case of retaking what was originally theirs. Of course, you don't hear those arguments like that out there, the word "crusade" is a taboo , whereas jihad is justified. . . . . ah well. . . ignorantum de historia!

Totally false. You exaggerate the justification of jihad, and if Bush cites "crusade" in his speeches (check some recent ones) then it can't be really taboo, is it?

Sell me whatever you are smoking, anyway, cuz i have a psychology test tomorrow and i plan to throw the results askew. *wink*

pz · 03-25-2003, 04:21 PM

An alternative interpretation: the Roman Empire actually lasted much longer, until 1453. The Western Empire fell in the 5th century, but the Eastern half thrived and hung in there another thousand years beyond that.

The Fall of Constantinople in 1453 was in part due to the rise of Islam -- it was the Turks who conquered it, along with the Balkans, and reached as far as Vienna.

Toto · 03-25-2003, 04:38 PM

That "eastern half" is usually known as Byzantium. Most people don't classify it as a "Roman" empire.

pz · 03-25-2003, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
That "eastern half" is usually known as Byzantium. Most people don't classify it as a "Roman" empire.

Of course they do! It had unquestioned legal and social continuity with the institutions of Rome. The city of Rome fell, with all the terrible symbolic implications of that event, but the Empire of Rome persisted in the East.

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03-25-2003, 03:39 PM	#2
philechat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Mind of the Other Posts: 886	What the f*ck? The Roman empire fell apart at 5th century, and Islam didn't come in at least 200 years later. It was caused by a series of complicated factors including, but not limited to, barbarian invasion, Rome's loss of soldiers (early Christians refused to bear arms), the corruption that necessarily happen after a long period of monarchy, and the disregard of cultural perservation among the early Christians. And I think there was also a bubonic plague going on at that time.

03-25-2003, 03:39 PM	#3
happyboy Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on the border between here and there, WV Posts: 373	yes, rome fell to the barbarian hordes LONG before mohammed started hallucinating about angels and intolerant monotheist deities. your friend is a moron, and needs to be smacked very hard. happyboy, who's wondering what exactly the world is coming to

03-25-2003, 03:52 PM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	A google search finds this Timeline Seaching for Roman Empire and following on, we find these key dates: Visigoths defeat Roman army 378 Theodosius is emperor 379 Roman presence in Britain reduced c. 380 Emperor rebuked by bishop 390 Christian mosaics 390 Olympic games banned 393 [Note: they were banned as pagan by the Christian theocrats of the crumbling Roman Empire] Vandals move through Gaul into Spain 406 Roman city of N�mes is sacked 407 Visigoths plunder Rome 410 Visigoths settle in France 418 Vandals capture Carthage 439 Huns press south across Danube 445 Angles and Saxons enter England c. 450 Attila and Huns invade Gaul 451 Huns ravage northern Italy 452 Vandals sack Rome 455 Odoacer ends western empire? 476 Theodoric captures Ravenna 493 That's about the end of the Roman Empire, and Mohammed is nowhere on the scene. Of course, your friend might be talking about the Holy Roman Empire, which was not Holy or Roman or an Empire Click on Mohammed and Mecca Muhammad preaches message of Allah 613 Muslims capture Jerusalem 638 Crusades against Islam start later: Pope preaches first crusade 1095 Jews massacred in German cities 1096 Crusaders capture Jerusalem 1099 Sultans of Rum 1099 Latin kingdom of Jerusalem 1109 Knights of St John established in Jerusalem 1113 Knights Templar 1120 Crusaders lose Edessa 1144 Second crusade 1147 Saladin captures Acre 1187 Saladin takes Jerusalem 1187

03-25-2003, 04:21 PM	#8
pz Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Morris, MN Posts: 3,341	An alternative interpretation: the Roman Empire actually lasted much longer, until 1453. The Western Empire fell in the 5th century, but the Eastern half thrived and hung in there another thousand years beyond that. The Fall of Constantinople in 1453 was in part due to the rise of Islam -- it was the Turks who conquered it, along with the Balkans, and reached as far as Vienna.

03-25-2003, 04:38 PM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	That "eastern half" is usually known as Byzantium. Most people don't classify it as a "Roman" empire.

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