BadBadBad

I came to these boards wanting the same advice you're seeking now, but 10 years and four kids down the road from where you are. I agree with BBT, what does she believe? I'd also ask, what does she want you to believe, what kind of lifestyle does she want you to live, how important is that to her, and how much of that can you live with? How do you think these will change over time? For example, if you have kids, her expectations and their importance will probably be a bigger issue.

I can say that it won't be good to hide your feelings on this to avoid affecting the relationship. You'll get away with it for a while, but the truth will come out, and you'll just have more to lose when it comes to the effects.

Tell us more about how "saved" (ie gonner) she is, and we can look down the road together at some scenarios that may come up.

Talulah

When I think about someone who wants a 'Christian household' I think of things like 'family bible study' and 'the family that prays together stays together.' I grew up in a so-called 'Christian household' and it was church 3 times a week and holding hands/prayers before every meal, etc.

I think you need to be aware that there is a difference in those Christians who just 'believe' and those who actively pursue a 'Christian household.' That means to me, that everything in your lives will be weighed on whether or not it is Christian. Your television, your reading material, every decision will be 'brought before the Lord.' Be careful, because you might just find yourself alone as the sole unChristian part of the life.

BadBadBad

Talulah,

That just makes my skin crawl. I'm still squiming in my chair. That's what christian household means to me too, and if that's what she wants, somebody is going to be pretty disappointed!

Soul Invictus

I'll be sure to do that. She asked me if I believed in God, and I told her I couldn't commit to the atheist stance; I did tell her I was agnostic, so I'm skeptical on issues, and I use a critical approach when asking questions. She asked me did I believe Jesus was the son of God, and I said I didn't really think so.

Although she professes salvation, she doesn't go all that often and she lives out the house. Someone mentioned that things kick into gear with children on the scene. We've only really gone to church a handful of times thus far. She isn't known to proselytize (did I spell it right?) and she hasn't ever appeared a fundy. Again, she's an anthro major. We talk usual BF/GF talk... Anything in particular, so I can follow you better?

BadBadBad

As a "saved" christian (you said salvation), she will interpret that to mean you aren't saved, which is the same to her as atheist, hellbound, heathen. Of course she wouldn't be so blunt and honest to either you or herself, but let's hold her to her religion. Your soft answers may lead her to have hope for your ever lasting soul! Is that what you want? Sounds very similar to my answers before I got married.

Sounds like my wife when we got married. That church thing though. Sure is frustrating to go to church alone when you have such a nice boyfriend to be proud of. (That is until they find out he's not so interested in regular attendance, OH MY!). She didn't even belong to a church when I met her and she had a 9 year old son.

Marriage. You need a church for that don't you? Have you tried to get married without being a member of the church? They kind of have a thing about that. It kind of goes like "why do you want to get married in my church? Aren't you a member of a church already? Oh, you're not. I see. Well we'd love to have you join our lovely congregation. ARE YOU OF THE BODY?" Be careful. If you don't answer that like a True Christian, you're not getting married in that church! That's how it started for me.

We can go on from there to counselling from the minister before you can get married. Then there's that empty feeling when she sits home on those Sunday mornings. There's those probing questions about your religious beliefs instead of the normal pillow talk. Somewhere in there, she discovers your personality flaws that surely would be cured if you just opened up your heart to Jesus. Then there's kids and more pressure to go to church, and it goes on and on and on!!! How about when your beautiful child comes home saying Praise Jesus? How about those nice ways churches have of teaching kids about Hell and whose going there? "Daddy? are you going to that other place?"

I think you're getting the picture. The question is how far does she honestly want to go down that road? That's the road to "salvation." If she doesn't want to go all the way, good for you, but any True Christian will tell you, there's no short cuts to Heaven. The question is how far down that road are you willing to go?

christ-on-a-stick

brettc, I appreciate your telling-it-like-it-is.

It was a long time ago (relatively) but I will never forget the "Fundie wife, brainwashed kids" thread.

He knows of which he speaks.

Soul Invictus

Last night we semi-talked about our differences. Somehow it veered onto her wanting me to be more open about my feelings, and that of the two choices, not keeping me and keeping me, that she was keeping me and that made her happy. I talked about my desire to make "us" work. Nothing had changed from last Saturday to this week, she just knew views or concerns I had. ( I forgot to mention that since I told her I post on IIDB, she asked me my handle...so she could read what my posts have been! I told her, because whatever I write here, I should be able to say to her face or defend to her also) We also talked how we couldn't envision starting over with someone else and how we doubted we could fully love another and how we wanted our future family dreams to come true. Anyways, we were reconciling however I did something I very much didn't want to do. I told her how I was enjoying how promising the discussion was going (over 45 minutes) however there was two things that I wanted to communicate.One, that I love her and am prepared to address her concerns. Two (which was the dire part) that although I understood she made up in her mind to keep me, I hoped that it wasn't based on the fear of losing me. I told her that I also am operating out of fear of losing her, however I genuinely think that we can work things out, IF we ever get to the stage of seeing what's required of each other (we we haven't fully discussed yet. We're waiting til after her exams to do that issue for the most part) After I said that "operating out of fear part" she started bawling like crazy (which I was thinking was going to happen) I didn't want to do it, but felt it was necessary, for us and her not to delude ourselves. I let her know that to only choose me due to fear wasn't productive; if she could genuinely see us working it out, then that's fine. Did I miss anything? She seemed a little less stressed before I left; she asked me to tuck her in! Anyways, where do I go from here?

BadBadBad

There's no easy answers to this. If she's a christian, you're talking really about two issues. First, the easier, with respect to your eternal soul. It's quite a quandry for the christian actually. She worships a God that will, even in the best case, stand by with his omnipotence and let you suffer eternal torture in Hell. She'll endure the length of her relationship with you knowing she'll spend eternity in heaven knowing you're burning in Hell. Every prayer she says will be to the God that will stand by and let it happen. I get all teary eyed just thinking about it!

Second and more importantly, if you have kids, we have their ever lasting souls to worry about. The best case, for her, is that you stand by and say nothing while she indoctrinates them however she chooses with whatever beliefs she chooses. If you interferre, and force her to compromise, you're forcing her to compromise on her plan to ensure salvation for the kids. For most christians, I would think that's a pretty big no no!

This is quite interesting too. God has given the kids Free Will, and no one can take that God given gift away or change it in any way. It seems I should be able to indoctrinate my kids into satan worshipping with the most intense brainwashing ever conceived. God should still hold them entirely responsible for making a "Free Will" choice to choose and worship God. Of course on the other hand, we really need to get them to church just to make sure, and the younger the better!

No matter what you do, you're screwed on this one. If you read around in this forum, you can see plenty of examples of just how offensive going along with the program can be. You'll have to decide if and how much of that will work for you. From her side, she'll either have to play risky games with the kids salvation, or she'll have to play risky games re-defining the "christianity" she believes in. The christian's compromises on this one can lead to a very interesting discussion that I won't go into.

For some relationships, this whole conflict can lead to deconversion. For others like me and Vicar Phillip, it can lead to serious risk of divorce and at least a long standing hotly contested battle. Basically to me it means either compromising on your beliefs, which will definitely impact contentment within the relationship, or changing beliefs wants and desires with respect to religion. Given what's at stake, that's not easy to do.

Pascal's wager is based upon a false premise. Religion does have a cost, and you're already paying it. You're going to be paying that cost over and over. You'll pay, your girlfriend/wife will pay. Your kids will pay, so will your parents, extended family and close friends. There is one way to get around it though. She can open her eyes, educate herself, think for herself, and realize there is no God. Problem solved, and no compromise required.

Viti

Edited because I posted this before I read your latest. Sweetie...be really careful on how much you have to compromise here. There are several here who have "been there done that", listen up!



1. Really truly think about all the compromises you or she will have to make for this relationship to work. Love isn't enough to make a lifetime, and losing yourself or living a fake life is never a good thing. I am simply reinforcing Brighids usual excellent points.

2. Write down what you learned in this relationship so far, what can you do to improve the chances of it working better? What can she do? What must be done for both of you to be happy?

3. Concentrate on your other goals like school rather than marriage (which can wait). You have a lot of things on your plate...why is marriage even in the picture at this point? Slow it down, if she is the right one then she'll still be there after you finish school.

Vent here as much as you need to, we care.

Koyaanisqatsi

Ummm, everyone's dancing around your "feelings" and all and I think that's just great. But let me ask you a straight out question: Can you respect someone who believes that Santa Clause factually exists?

I know we all go back and forth and dance around on many different topics here, but that's the crux of it in regard to relationships. Can you respect someone who actually, literally believes that Santa Clause factually exists (i.e., is not a fictional character)?

It seems ridiculous, I know. Of course Santa Clause doesn't exist. But, make no mistake, this is precisely what she believes, just under a different name.

So, given that, can you sit by and watch your future children being told that Santa Clause actually exists? Think about that. Not just for ritual or pageantry, but actually exists? Yes, Billy or Sally, there literally is a Santa Clause and I am not lying to you or ever would lie to you! Can you do that?

If you can, then no problem.

See, the main problem is that theist beliefs are the norm, so we most often say, "Think about this and if you can, then fine."

But, what's actually happening is your beloved is a brainwashed member of a cult. No, that isn't "harsh" or "over the top" or any other marginallization attempt; that's the truth.

So, it's not just, "Can I deal with this happening;" it's, "What should I do to stop this post haste."

Atheists on this board often temper their understanding with social understanding and say things that are extremely forgiving and tread very lightly, because we all were pretty much born again atheists (to coin a phrase) and therefore go to great lengths when discussing faith-based relationships; however, there is no escaping the fact that your lover's beliefs are, frankly, idiotic. To hold them is to relinquish all rational thought.

If you can accept that and that's ok with you, then fine. NO problem (from your end). If you cannot, then jestison your relationship quickly and with reckless abandon, because, it will only get worse.

If the two of you can't honestly agree upon what it is you see as 'truth' (whatever that may be), then neither of you can grow, IMHO.

She will always resent you for not being able to agree to her irrational demands, whether she voices them or not. Your relationship will, therefore, become one of convenient lies; lies that only affect esoteric thoughts that neither of you will communicate. If that's ok, then stay with her.

But, to those who allow their spouses to take your children to church, I would only ask you this: would you allow your children to go to Jonestown? Beside popular bullshit and no immediate calls for suicide, what is the difference and why do you allow it?

Do you think that Jonestown is an aberration? Something out of the norm? Something that doesn't happen in your "reformed" area churches?

It's a cult. And the people that administer the cult doctrine are intent upon one thing and one thing only; glorifying their cult, whether they are capable of acknowledging it or not.

Cults have no compunction in indoctrinating your children. None.

So why would allow it to happen? Your spouse has no compunction in fostering it, so why do you allow it? Fear of confrontation? Doesn't that provide enough evidence to prove that you shouldn't allow it?

Suffer the children unto me. If you can't see that this was exactly what Hitler said, then you suffer the same fate. Children are not to be indoctrinated into false beliefs. Period.

Notice, btw, that no theist would argue that what they indoctrinate is a false belief. They are wrong, of course. Dead wrong, so to allow your spouse to take your children and force their indoctrination is tantamount to absolute complicity in their indoctrination.

Children don't know what the fuck is going on. They will believe whatever it is that they are instructed to believe. You can't counter the church; that's why it's the Church and you're an infidel.

The only way to counter it and save your children (assuming that's a goal of yours) is to absolutely deny their indoctrination. Is it the harder road less travelled? Absolutely. Will it result in what you hope it results in? No, not immediately. But it will insure that your children do not perpetuate blindly what has been done in the past.

It's a question of morality. Do you lie to your children? Don't act like it's an abhorrant question, because if you've ever celebrated Christmas or Channukah or Quansit (or whatever), then you have lied to your children.

These things don't celebrate anything real, so if you give a shit about your children, you won't train them to respond to lies.

Teach your children well; this is precisely the same sentiment stolen by the NT mythmakers. Don't make the same mistake they do and teach your children acceptance of fraud.

Think of it this way. For two thousand years we've had christianity and it has resulted in nothing but heinous problems on many different levels. Don't let your children contribute to the problem.

If they ask, "Where do we come from," answer, "You know what, honey, nobody knows. Maybe you will."

That is the beginning of enlightenment and nothing else. Empower your children to think for themselves and stop anyone who tries to impose something other.

If you don't, then you are as guilty as guilty can be; you are guilty of complacency with the norm. The norm is to be combatted by the young and never accepted because they are told to accept it.

If your husband or wife is doing this and you allow it to happen, then you're part of the problem, plain and simple. Your spouse is not to be allowed to inflict that kind of lie on your own children and if your spouse can't recognize that due to their own indoctrination, then it is incumbant upon you to at least stop the indoctrination. Your spouse can believe whatever they want to believe; but they are not allowed to pass that belief on to your children anymore than a syphilitic is allowed to pass on syphilis.

Counter it directly and with arrogant force; the same way they inflict it. No theist would argue differently, if the reverse were true. Think about that. No theist would argue differently; they would just instigate indoctrination.

Why wouldn't you counter that, if indeed, you love your children?

My buck thirty five.